Mac is simply not a better desktop environment than microsoft

Vimmer

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Due to recent changes in my living situation, I decided to do something bold and expensive, and buy a mac mini to sit on my computer desk along with some other equipment. I was pretty excited, as apple has very shiny and sleek looking products, and i have never owned an apple desktop or laptop product. However, despite all the things people say about apple being faster, better performing, and more secure than windows, I immediately started running into problems.

First of all, when i was buying the thing and the parts at Best Buy, I wanted the lady to open up the case with the keyboards and mice (they are all "magic"), just so i could figure out how the general compatibility works with these things and was met with the "i can't do that for you" resistance. I was glad to know that the mini uses HDMI, which means they are compatible with monitors i already have, but this employee was only able to give me assurances about how "easy" it was to use the "magic" peripherals, and assured me that they would work. After I got back home and tried to set up my new desktop computer, I discovered that the mouse worked and connected to the mini like the lady said, but the keyboard required a lightning connection, which they have phased out on the current new models of minis. So I spent about 40 minutes back at best buy exchanging the products and getting help from different employees, even though the lady was nice in helping me get to the right person to tell me what was wrong.

Then, I finally was able to set everything up with the cloud and explore the software and the z shell. I was a little confused when trying to set up the screen saver and suspend defaults, even though I eventually figured everything out, and then at some point I messed around with the command line and scripting. Unfortunately, you need to use "sudo" to shutdown, suspend, and restart the computer. This is really annoying, as there's no "sudo" lock for the off button....why should my largely safe user action, of shutting off the freakin' computer, be protected by the mac internal security? The magic mouse and keyboard were hurting my hands too. Then, suddenly, the graphical "sleep" selection button no longer worked, and after I kept researching this, I eventually found a stack exchange post that stated you can fix this through the command line, and i think what happened was I somehow changed the internal settings when I was messing around with the z shell suspend command. DOH!

Don't get me wrong, in some ways i have enjoyed the mac journey, and I do think linux devs could integrate the aspect of "mission control" (the desktop configuration app) where you can bind certain applications to specific desktops, even though i'm just fine with the more free form and 4-Desktop configuration of the mate desktop environment. Macs also do come with intriguing apps, and they let you integrate your text messages with your desktop if you have an apple phone. However, my general irritation and disgust with apple has now reached a fever pitch now that today I tried setting up a coding environment. I decided that I would try using microsoft visual code even though I already had vim installed (my obvious fave) with the copilot extension, as this appears to be a favorite among professionals. Plus, my experiences with MVC were disappointing on both windows and linux, so maybe copilot would guide me through the entire process and things would be okay.

I got to part where I learned the keyboard shortcut for the integrated terminal and i had already told copilot to write a simple z shell script which i hadn't named yet, but copied into MVC, and when I was about to name and run it, copilot told me i had to enter the keyboard shortcut to get back to the integrated terminal, but once I had trouble switching back to copilot, THE MOUSE STOPPED WORKING ACROSS THE OPERATING SYSTEM IN GENERAL. Time to shut down and reflect on things for a while.

I've seen a lot of microsoft hate on linux forums, but the process of using apple is no less masochistic than any other operating system, unfortunately. Computing is a lifelong adventure in frustration and dealing with annoying people on the internet, there's no way out.
 
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One of the great things about a Mac is that it's a full on UNIX operating system. You can do quite a bit in the terminal, just like you can with Linux. It's a POSIX compliant operating system based on XNU. (A bunch of the code comes from the BSD family.)

Which Mac Mini did you pick and which version of the CPU do you have? The newest M4 Mini is quite inexpensive for what you're getting from it. A few years ago, if you'd told me that I'd be calling an Apple product 'affordable' then I'd have thought you were out of your mind.

If only Apple wasn't so anti-DIY - though I kind of get it. These days, the CPU is so fast that you gain huge advantages by soldering the memory to the board as close to the CPU as you can. You can at least upgrade the internal storage. Anything else you want to add will need to be external. I've yet to try it but I guess there's not much of a loss by running an external graphics card. I'll have to play with that someday.

Do you intend to install Linux on your Mini? There are already some distros that support ARM64. Ubuntu and Fedora are two that spring to mind.
 
@Vimmer :-

I lost any interest I might have had in Apple products all the way back in the late '80s. An unbelievably balky Apple Lisa sealed the company's fate so far as I was concerned.....nothing went right on that damn thing, and I just gave up out of sheer disgust that a supposedly "premium" product could be so "f**ked-up", OOTB.

After Jobs died and Timbo took over - the "money man" - and prices started sky-rocketing out of my reach, I really failed to see why people would pay such ridiculously inflated prices for what was JUST a computer, when all was said & done. From what I understand, it must be down to the fact that everything in the eco-system just "works" together with zero hassle. So my brother tells me.....and he is an Apple "fanboi" of the highest magnitude. Every computer, tablet, multimedia device of whatever sort in his house is made by Apple, all controlled by him talking to Siri through his watch.

He cannot understand why people don't want to avail themselves of this marvellous behaviour.....even if it means bankrupting themselves to do so!

He takes the p**s out of me and my second-hand hardware running Puppy Linux. Like I said; he's a "fanboi". 'Nuff said.....


Mike. :rolleyes:
 
@Vimmer :-

I lost any interest I might have had in Apple products all the way back in the late '80s. An unbelievably balky Apple Lisa sealed the company's fate so far as I was concerned.....nothing went right on that damn thing, and I just gave up out of sheer disgust that a supposedly "premium" product could be so "f**ked-up", OOTB.

After Jobs died and Timbo took over - the "money man" - and prices started sky-rocketing out of my reach, I really failed to see why people would pay such ridiculously inflated prices for what was JUST a computer, when all was said & done. From what I understand, it must be down to the fact that everything in the eco-system just "works" together with zero hassle. So my brother tells me.....and he is an Apple "fanboi" of the highest magnitude. Every computer, tablet, multimedia device of whatever sort in his house is made by Apple, all controlled by him talking to Siri through his watch.

He cannot understand why people don't want to avail themselves of this marvellous behaviour.....even if it means bankrupting themselves to do so!

He takes the p**s out of me and my second-hand hardware running Puppy Linux. Like I said; he's a "fanboi". 'Nuff said.....


Mike. :rolleyes:
Yeah computer's never just work, and i wholeheartedly believe apple is the least ethical computing because it becomes obvious that they only want you to use their products. MS is pretty horrible to, but i think the executives there understand not everyone will be okay with their schemes.

Back in the early days of computing, the coders largely saw IBM as being the bad guys threatening flexibility and freedom, but of course culture changes.
 
The newest M4 Mini is quite inexpensive for what you're getting from it.

I bought the cheapest one: once i was done buying the mouse, keyboard and computer, it was close to 900 dollars, after i made the return, it was closer to 800 dollars because i went with the smaller keyboard. I have thought about buying a better mouse and keyboard, but I already have 3 other computers, so that seemed kinda stupid. I don't know what I'm going to do with this thing, as i largely bought it for experimental purposes. Maybe I'll give it a reset for fun: nothing important is stored on it yet besides the notes I was making about the system.

One interesting and nice feature that apple devices have is they store your password in the operating system, but this is not secure if you haven't made a very complicated system password to block anyone from getting to your other passwords. I might do that on the reset just because I'm weird like that.

You can't do any more with a apple command line environment than you can with a standard linux command line environment, unless the software you want to use only works on apple. Actually, one of the interesting things I have learned so far is that apple has walled off directories to, unless you reboot in their safe mode. This is called "System Integrity Protection", it kinda makes sense if you assume there's such a thing as an "average user who doesn't need to mess around with any of that", but for someone who wants to learn about computers it's just another form of defensive and evasive behavior by developers.
I've yet to try it but I guess there's not much of a loss by running an external graphics card. I'll have to play with that someday.

Correct, unless you are a bleeding-edge gamer who invests thousands of dollars into video games, you don't actually lose much by either playing very simple video games or buying a processor meant to handle graphics.

BTW, I didn't mention all of the problems I had with the mac mini, i just assume no one really wants read too deeply into computer issues, as that's a way of creating possibly thousands rabbit holes.

And i also wasn't trying to insult apple users, or say that apple is an "evil corporation", i just wanted to point this out to people are really trying figure out the truth about what their options are so they can decide whether apple makes sense for their purposes. For example, I think apple is probably one of the better choices for professional music or graphic design, and it's not problematic at all if you are not a spend-thrift or a control freak (i'm kinda in the latter category).
 
it was close to 900 dollars, after i made the return, it was closer to 800 dollars

If you root around online, you can often find it in the $500 range - from reputable sites. That's for the 16 GB model with 256 GB of storage. There are video examples that show how to do it.

It's not a 'quick and easy' process, but it's not too hard.

They do want you to have a 2nd Mac available to restore the image of your drive, but I've seen people mention doing so with a MacOS VM. (You do not need the most current MacOS to do the restore.)
 
If you root around online, you can often find it in the $500 range - from reputable sites. That's for the 16 GB model with 256 GB of storage. There are video examples that show how to do it.
I knew you can get stuff cheaper used, but i've also realized that you can get ripped when want it that way.

Cars aren't like computers where they immedately become thousands of dollars less valuable when you buy them: mac computers do tend to retain their resale value pretty well, so i can sell the thing, or i can keep learning. It's up to me.
 
I knew you can get stuff cheaper used, but i've also realized that you can get ripped when want it that way.

I may not have been clear. My bad.

The $500 price is for a new Mac Mini M4 with 16 GB of RAM and 256 GB of storage.

They're on sale at that price fairly often. Yesterday, I found two at that price.
 
I may not have been clear. My bad.

The $500 price is for a new Mac Mini M4 with 16 GB of RAM and 256 GB of storage.

They're on sale at that price fairly often. Yesterday, I found two at that price.
Well not much of a point in contemplating that now! Lol...what sites are you referring to.
 
I didn't read the whole post, so I don't know the specifics. However, some of my family members were die-hard Apple fans and used me as live-in free tech support for them. Apple computers in my opinion aren't any better, they're just different AND EXPENSIVE. There's a reason why after all these decades I'm finally on Linux and nothing else. I had my share of Apples too, and I'm just not hooked on them. Yes, they look pretty on the oustide, and the Desktop can be mimicked with simple DE theme techniques (in Linux). I'm just not sold on them as luxury items. But that's just my 2 cents of opinion. And the partial lack of modularity at the hardware level is truly annoying.
 
I didn't read the whole post, so I don't know the specifics. However, some of my family members were die-hard Apple fans and used me as live-in free tech support for them. Apple computers in my opinion aren't any better, they're just different AND EXPENSIVE. There's a reason why after all these decades I'm finally on Linux and nothing else. I had my share of Apples too, and I'm just not hooked on them. Yes, they look pretty on the oustide, and the Desktop can be mimicked with simple DE theme techniques (in Linux). I'm just not sold on them as luxury items. But that's just my 2 cents of opinion. And the partial lack of modularity at the hardware level is truly annoying.
I only like OLD windows style DEs better, my favorite DE so far is the debian MATE environment, it requires no adjustments.
 
I do like MATE too. For a while I had it installed on my system alongside XFCE.
 
I have moved back to Linux for my programming, after about fifteen years of running side by side with Macs. I know nothing technical about Windows as my last version was XP, almost 25 years ago, but, I still watch and read the technical news and that inevitably includes Redmond stuff on occasion.

To my observations...

Microsoft considers that a Windows user does not own the product, but merely using it only as long as allowed by the company. (Unless the user wishes to go without patches and fixes.) They will be forced to upgrade when told, use this or that (or be pestered to death about it) and so on.

Apple has been good about leaving a user alone if wanted, just supplying patches that can be delayed if desired. Until recently, that is. Suddenly, with 15.1 version of MacOS, code stopped running unless the developer supplied a certificate, or was a registered developer. That is a problem if a user is deep into the UNIX part of MacOS, as many very useful utilities were written by developers long departed and unlikely to appear and apply for position as a developer. There are work-arounds of course, and I think Apple has backed off from that a bit, but at that point the Mac no longer seemed to be 'mine', but just another box about to become ewaste unless giving approval of a company's new rules.

Fortunately, I have always kept a Linux box hot and usable even during the decade or so of heavy Apple use, so my Linux skills did not totally disappear. So I have been gradually transfering my work (back) to a Linux workstation and the move has been satisfactory. Of course, there are things that MacOS (or Windows, for that matter) does better than Linux, but it works the other way around also. And as I have no mandatory programs that only run on Mac, I don't run up against the problem for many Windows users who would switch, but HAVE to have Office 365 or Adobe or whatever.

I miss the total absolute silence of Apple Silicon, but X86 stuff has come a long way from the old days of wind generators. By making some considerable changes in fan sizes and placement, I have gotten my Ryzen 7 down to almost total silence.

So far so good.
 
I miss the total absolute silence of Apple Silicon

Since the early days, like back in the 80s, I've been a closet fan of ARM and RISC - on technical merits. It has just taken this long for those to reach parity, due to financial choices and financial availability.

The new Apple silicon has me excited. The adoption of ARM64 has me excited, even though it is slow. I suspect I'll have an ARM-based desktop system soon - but I'm too old to ride the 'bleeding edge' of tech. So, it may be a couple more years.
 
Since the early days, like back in the 80s, I've been a closet fan of ARM and RISC - on technical merits. It has just taken this long for those to reach parity, due to financial choices and financial availability.

The new Apple silicon has me excited. The adoption of ARM64 has me excited, even though it is slow. I suspect I'll have an ARM-based desktop system soon - but I'm too old to ride the 'bleeding edge' of tech. So, it may be a couple more years.
Yep. In my younger days, I would stay up at all hours happily working on kernels and drivers and switches. I started with Slackware back in the diskette days - downloaded on a half-speed 26k dialup line, no less. Now, however, I just let the younger set do the work, and I download and use their efforts. With gratitude of course.
 
Just have to chime in here. Mac is not better than windows, just as windows is not better than Linux. Linux is such a breath of fresh air for me. once I get my systems over on their old SSD, keep my windows setups on the new drives (for now). It's going to be a process of moving away from everything microsoft, but I am sure it will be fine once I get my server setup to take all our onedrive data. Just need to make a secure section for my wife and my photo shots ha ha! Thats a requirement. Don't want family memebers peeking at those.
 
To my mind, Apple went from selling an alternative to selling toys and an ecosystem. I'm not interested in buying into yet another ecosystem so I've gone elsewhere. It doesn't help that Mac desktop environments really do annoy me.

That having been said: Mac is still a fine OS and if you're happy with it rock on and enjoy it. We have different operating systems for a reason.
 


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