Building an OS from WINE

[Deleted member 111282]

I've been using Linux (particularly Mint) for the last 10 years now. While I never found it to be bad per-se, there have been times where I have found it to be annoying (such as recently with some glitches I've had). That's not because I had to unlearn everything I was accustomed to on Windows (I've managed to overcome that), instead its because every time I encounter an issue, I have to keep coming here or ask my friend for help (which is one of the reasons why Dave Cullen from Computing Forever said he's no longer a Linux user). I don't have a problem with asking for help, but when I have to do so consistently, that can get annoying after a while. The only reason I switched from Windows was due to privacy reasons. Aside from Linux being more secure, private, and open, I never really considered myself to be a true Linux user. Instead, I've always wanted an OS that's Windows-like but without all of the bullshit of Windows. Just so we're clear, no, I'm not saying Linux has to be more like Windows (nor am I implying it). Also, I've used other distros besides Mint, and I wasn't that fond of them either. This is why I've had an interest in getting a development team together to build a replacement for Windows. I should point out that there's ReactOS, but it never got off of the ground, and is still being used for testing purposes only. Even the derivatives of it haven't gotten much traction either.

Why I'd like to have this based on WINE is the unfortunate fact that Linux doesn't have solid support from many companies that produce necessary software and drivers. One example is HP, and while they do have a Linux driver for their printers, I can tell from experience it's not very good, and the company's tech support will focus on Windows and Mac exclusively. I'd hate to shell out a few hundred dollars for a new printer all because the driver I'm given isn't completely compatible. This is why I've thought about torrenting a copy of Windows 10 to run in Virtualbox so I can use the HP Software Center, and finally get my printer to work right (obviously you can understand how annoying that is). Although Steam and GOG have gained popularity in Linux, Linux itself has never gotten much attention from AAA game developers.

On top of having important software run on it natively (and continuously using blackbox testing to get more Windows software to run natively), I've also thought about having it run FOSS, as well as cross-platform software. When downloading Windows software off of the internet, I'd like to have a program that will not only fool the repository into thinking the computer's running Windows, but will also scan the software for viruses, and quarantine it if necessary. Obviously, the OS itself will be FOSS as well so that anyone can make improvements to it. However, I don't want this to be based on the Linux kernel, because Tovalds has admitted its gotten too bloated, and it would cost an extreme amount of money to rewrite any code for it. If you want to create a derivative version of the OS and have that be a distro, be my guest. Because this will be based on WINE, not only was I thinking of calling it WINE OS, but also naming each version after a flavor of wine. These are just a few examples of what I'd like to have in this OS.

If anyone has a background in building their own OS, and would be willing to work with me on this, I'd greatly appreciate it. I don't want to work on this just yet because I need to make money from my videos first. When I do have the money, we'll have to meet up on a 3rd party site so I can pay you.

 

[JasKinasis]

This sounds like a terrible idea! Creating an OS based on WINE will not solve your problem.

Lots of programs still do not run natively in Linux using WINE. So trying to create an OS that will run Windows applications through WINE isn't going to improve anything.

Also, what kernel will you be running underneath WINE, if not Linux?? Something has to interface with the hardware and manage the systems resources.
Other than Linux, the only other viable option is BSD.
GNU Mach/Hurd is still not production ready yet, despite being older than the Linux kernel. There may be a few other home-rolled hobbyist kernels out there, but they won't be anywhere near as complete as the Linux Kernel.

If you want to use Windows-only software, I'd suggest sticking with running it in Windows. Either inside Linux as a guest VM, or dual boot with windows.

Personally, I'd just bite the bullet and leave the Windows world behind. If something doesn't run natively on Linux - avoid it. I've used Linux exclusively on all of my PC's at home for almost 20 years.

There isn't anything I can't do under Linux that I couldn't do in Windows. I've recorded music, made artwork, videos, podcasts, created a number of programs, scripts and tools for myself. I've taught my children to code. I've created games for my kids.
I've even optimised my desktop experience to suit the way I work - with a customised dwm, built and installed from source.

Using Linux often means having to find alternative software for most things you used to run in Windows. And adopting a slightly different workflow to what you were used to before. But that's the price you pay for your software freedom.

For gaming on Linux, there is Steam - there's a growing list of AAA titles on Steam and a number of independent developers developing for Linux on Steam.

Also the next gen openGL library called Vulkan (Created and maintained by the Khronos group - consisting of over 150 different tech companies, including Nvidia, Intel, Valve and many other tech giants) allows developers to create graphical code in a more platform agnostic way. And does have some functionality that enables interoperability with DirectX applications. Allowing them to be more easily ported to run in the Vulkan library.
But don't hold your breath that any AAA software houses are going to port any of their old popular games.
Valve ported ALL of their back-catalogue of games to work with Vulkan. And all other 3rd party games created using their Source engine should also work on Linux too.

But for newer games - it should be easier for game devs to create cross platform games. The problem with many AAA game devs is that they are heavily invested in using Microsofts DirectX library, which is Windows only. And because of this - they may not want to retrain their developers to use Vulkan!

Again, if it's Windows only software you want to run, then stick to Windows. Linux is NOT Windows and WINE cannot run ALL Windows programs.

 

[Deleted member 111282]

Lots of programs still do not run natively in Linux using WINE.

Because some Windows programs have been able to run natively in Linux, I was under the impression that further blackbox testing would work with every other Windows program. However, after reading up on how difficult it is for the WINE team to get those programs to run on Linux, I'll admit I was wrong to assume that blackbox testing would be the end-all/be-all answer. We could use clean room reverse-engineer it as another option, but there's legal grey areas with that.

what kernel will you be running underneath WINE, if not Linux?? Something has to interface with the hardware and manage the systems resources.
Other than Linux, the only other viable option is BSD.
GNU Mach/Hurd is still not production ready yet, despite being older than the Linux kernel. There may be a few other home-rolled hobbyist kernels out there, but they won't be anywhere near as complete as the Linux Kernel.

I didn't have any particular kernel in mind at first, but we can use BSD

If you want to use Windows-only software, I'd suggest sticking with running it in Windows. Either inside Linux as a guest VM, or dual boot with windows.

I didn't say I wanted to run just Windows software, as I mentioned wanting to run FOSS, and cross-platform software. There are a few Windows programs that are necessary to have, and even though I said I'd run Windows 10 in Virtualbox just to get the proper drivers, I really shouldn't have to resort to that when I can have them run in a main OS.

I've even optimised my desktop experience to suit the way I work - with a customised dwm, built and installed from source.

While that's a great feat you've accomplished, not everyone is that level of handy with technology (just ask my my mom)

don't hold your breath that any AAA software houses are going to port any of their old popular games.

I'm well aware of that, hence why I mentioned it at the beginning of this thread

But for newer games - it should be easier for game devs to create cross platform games. The problem with many AAA game devs is that they are heavily invested in using Microsofts DirectX library, which is Windows only. And because of this - they may not want to have to learn how to use Khronos!

On one hand, they're blissfully ignorant about not catering to the Linux community as much as they should. On the other hand, one of the reasons they most-likely avoid it (unless the game is cross-platform compatible) is because Linux doesn't have any standardization.

 

[f33dm3bits]

On one hand, they're blissfully ignorant about not catering to the Linux community as much as they should. On the other hand, one of the reasons they most-likely avoid it (unless the game is cross-platform compatible) is because Linux doesn't have any standardization.

There's plenty of games that work on GNU/Linux now days either through Steam/proton or Lutris and Steam has even ported quite a few games to work natively on GNU/Linux. Then you also have projects such as HeroicGamesLauncher and Legendary that allow you to run Epic games on GNU/Linux so there are plenty of options now days, in the days before Lutris and Proton you just had Wine/Crossover and had to get it working yourself and through tips from winehq-appdb.

 

[Deleted member 111282]

There's plenty of games that work on GNU/Linux now days either through Steam/proton or Lutris and Steam has even ported quite a few games to work natively on GNU/Linux. Then you also have projects such as HeroicGamesLauncher and Legendary that allow you to run Epic games on GNU/Linux so there are plenty of options now days, in the days before Lutris and Proton you just had Wine/Crossover and had to get it working yourself and through tips from winehq-appdb.

That's still running a gaming platform on Linux, which is completely different from porting games to Debian, Manjaro, Red Hat, etc, and it reinforces my point about how nothing is standard on Linux

 

[f33dm3bits]

That's still running a gaming platform on Linux, which is completely different from porting games to Debian, Manjaro, Red Hat, etc, and it reinforces my point about how nothing is standard on Linux

Like I said earlier Steam has made quite a good start of porting games to GNU/Linux.

Steam Search

store.steampowered.com

SteamOS + Linux Titles

Steam Store Hub

store.steampowered.com

Not every single game has to be ported to GNU/Linux although with Vulkan it should be easier for game developers to port games to GNU/Linux. As long as I can run the game I'm happy whether it is native or through proton/wine and I don't care about GNU/Linux becoming widely adopted but it seems you do. If you want to run every single game available(impossible to play every single game at once..) and at release run Windows, hell Microsoft doesn't even follow open standards.

 

[Deleted member 111282]

Not every single game has to be ported to GNU/Linux, as long as I can run it I'm happy whether it is native or through proton/wine and I don't care about GNU/Linux becoming widely adopted but it seems you do. If you want to run every single game available(impossible to play every single game at once..) and at release run Windows, hell Microsoft doesn't even follow open standards.

Not every single game has to be ported to GNU/Linux

I never said it had to be that way

I don't care about GNU/Linux becoming widely adopted but it seems you do

For a while, I was hoping (in a somewhat religious kind of way) that more people would gradually move to Linux because of all of the controversies involving Big Tech (like I did), but after seeing that not happen over the years, seeing the number of distros turning Linux into a complete mess, and occasionally getting annoyed with Linux, I've concluded it won't become widely adopted because it's ALWAYS been for the geeks and techies, instead of for the average user. The community isn't that much better, because the second someone dares to criticize Linux, or encourages the community to improve it so more people will use it, they get shit on. Even though Android is the most popular distro ever, it would NOT have become that if it wasn't for Google's influence (which is why Connical discontinued Ubuntu Touch).



I should also mention that I grew up on Nintendo, and fell out of the gaming scene after I got rid of my Wii. While I could've gotten into computer gaming back then, I was busy with school and hanging out with friends, so I never got interested enough to do so. Why I have less of an interest in doing that now is because I need to focus more on adult responsibilities (Because I'm pushing 30 and I have problem with procrastinating), and gaming on a platform instead of on physical media doesn't give me full control over the game.

Lastly, gaming on Linux is a small problem compared the boatload of other problems it has. After becoming disillusioned with Linux, I've honestly been working on ideas for a competing OS that's single, standard, made for the average user, allows people with software background to become one of the developers, and doesn't have the drawbacks of Windows, Mac, Chrome, iOS, or Android. After going back to the drawing board, it won't be what I suggested at the beginning of this thread. I'll continue to use Linux for basic things, but when I have the opportunity to have this new OS to set sail, I'm taking it.

 

[f33dm3bits]

I never said it had to be that way

You gave that impression so I assumed it, I guess I assumed wrong.

The problem is that everyone grows up with Windows since 90% of the pre-built systems sold are sold with Windows already installed. I've seen that most who come from Windows and try to switch to a GNU/Linux distribution expect it to behave exactly the same and then get frustrated because it's not working the same. Yes GNU/Linux isn't perfect but it can't be expected for GNU/Linux to behave the same as Windows just because a person switching from Windows doesn't want to learn a new system and new ways of doing things.

I'm not a software engineer but I would expect that once software(games or applications) is written to work on one distribution it should be easily possible to get it working on another distribution. Take for example "Microsoft Teams", there is only an rpm and a deb package available. However Teams also runs on Arch and they use the deb package to make it work on Arch, I would expect if it's possible for something like Teams it should be possible for other Software as well. @JasKinasis can you shed some light on this since you have experience with software development.

 

[Deleted member 111282]

You gave that impression so I assumed it, I guess I assumed wrong.

The problem is that everyone grows up with Windows since 90% of the pre-built systems sold are sold with Windows already installed. I've seen that most who come from Windows and try to switch to a GNU/Linux distribution expect it to behave exactly the same and then get frustrated because it's not working the same. Yes GNU/Linux isn't perfect but it can't be expected for GNU/Linux to behave the same as Windows just because a person switching from Windows doesn't want to learn a new system and new ways of doing things.

I'm not a software engineer but I would expect that once software(games or applications) is written to work on one distribution it should be easily possible to get it working on another distribution. Take for example "Microsoft Teams", there is only an rpm and a deb package available. However Teams also runs on Arch and they use the deb package to make it work on Arch, I would expect if it's possible for something like Teams it should be possible for other Software as well. @JasKinasis can you shed some light on this since you have experience with software development.

As I said at the very beginning, I never wanted Linux to be like Windows. I'm perfectly fine with Linux being different than Windows, but I'm not fine with Linux being an incoherent mess of distros, the community treating it like it's their own exclusive niche, the community thinking Terminal commands are the answer to everything, no one willing to teach people how to use it, and no one willing to improve the code quality aside from a few bugs here and there. This is (once again) why it doesn't get support from well-known tech companies, and why it's become a complete failure on the desktop.

I'm done talking about game support as that's a small issue at this point

 

[Condobloke]

but I'm not fine with Linux being an incoherent mess of distros,

The huge choice of distros may be incohesive to you, But to the greater percentage of Linux users it is not incohesive. The stunning success of the ...www.distrowatch.com site is fair proof of that

the community treating it like it's their own exclusive niche,
The community (which includes you and I and every other member on this forum), certainly does treat Linux like it's our own exclusive niche. We actually take great pride in doing so.

, the community thinking Terminal commands are the answer to everything,

Spoken like someone who has no clue of how to solve some problems/requests for info etc etc by entering a few letters etc etc to do so. The information re which letters etc to use and the order to use them in is all available via a simple google search. I would also guesstimate that approx 90% of the problems brought to this forum by members are solved without use of the terminal.

no one willing to teach people how to use it,

This forum has upwards of 40,000 members, and the vast majority are beyond generous with their time in helping others. The number of threads/posts etc etc are more than fair proof of that.

no one willing to improve the code quality aside from a few bugs here and there.

The code quality?...you obviously mean the code which makes up the Linux Kernel. Try taking that up with Linus Torvalds. The code quality is what presents to us all the many, many Linux OS's which rarely if ever crash and on the whole present a remarkably low problem count.

This is (once again) why it doesn't get support from well-known tech companies, and why it's become a complete failure on the desktop.

Rubbish.
The very fact that Linux has the users that it does with the massive contributions that they make, makes a nonsense of that statement.

As I said at the very beginning, I never wanted Linux to be like Windows.

Amen to that. The very reasons that you criticise Linux for, are what sets it apart from the hoi polloi.


Quite a number of years ago I made this point.
I like to help in win 10. They are the people who really need help....those in Linux also need help...but not with the same desperation. Linux, when compared to win 10 at a strictly user level is actually quite boring. rarely does anything go wrong ! The constant need to be alert to the slightest hiccup is definitely restricted to Windows....and in particular Windows 10

The emphasis in win 10 is to keep the os running and stable enough to start again tomorrow.....The emphasis in Linux is to look for something new to do

Just in case you think this going to go on, and ....on....?

You are flogging a dead horse. The subject has been done to death.

Those are my final words on this topic.

 

[JasKinasis]

@f33dm3bits - if there are .deb and .rpm packages available for teams, then yes, it is possible that someone could take one of those packages and repackage it for another packaging system so it could be installed on another Linux distro - as Arch have apparently done.

And as for other software - if there is a Linux version packaged for one distro, then it should be possible to package it for other distros.

The teams package will probably just contain a pre-built binary of teams. which may be a monolithic build, with all of the dependencies built into the executable, or it might contain a list of external packages it requires from the repos as dependencies.

Many developers will only release packages in .deb and .rpm format because they are the most widely used formats. So I’m sure it wouldn’t be the first time that a Debian, or Fedora package was used as a basis/source to build packages for other Linux distributions.

 

[Deleted member 111282]

The huge choice of distros may be incoherent to you, But to the greater percentage of Linux users it is not incoherent. The stunning success of the ...www.distrowatch.com site is fair proof of that.

"We don't need to keep reinventing Linux, creating distributions that put critical bits in interesting and inventive if unusual places. An application written for Linux should be relatively simple to install on any Linux distribution. It ain't so. Do we really need hundreds of general purpose distributions, all with different tools, different filesystem layouts, variations on three major software package management schemes and a host of oddball ones, and so on? Do we need yet more to crop up?" Caitlyn Martin of LinuxDevCenter

The community (which includes you and I and every other member on this forum), certainly does treat Linux like it's our own exclusive niche. We actually take great pride in doing so.

I can understand gatekeeping to keep out the SJWs (because the Contributor Covenant led to some contributors threatening to pull their code from the kernel), but despite their loud, obnoxious, and idiotic antics turning society into one big circus, they thankfully only make up a small percentage of the population. By the community purposely distancing itself from everyone else, it can inadvertently alienate potential (and level-headed) users, especially when there have been some stories of Linux users belittling newcomers.

Also, because the alt-tech movement has been gaining traction, and more and more people are slowly moving away from YouTube, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Snapchat, TikTok, etc, think about how those same people could very well move from Windows, Mac, and Chrome and potentially onto Linux within 10 years from now. Thanks to Snowden and Assange, Crypto-Anarchism is on the rise, and because Linux offers privacy and encryption, some distros may inevitably become mainstream as a result. Because Linux isn't made for the average user, its going to get turned into more of a joke by them (but no skin off of your nose).

Spoken like someone who has no clue of how to solve some problems/requests for info etc etc by entering a few letters etc etc to do so. The information re which letters etc to use and the order to use them in is all available via a simple google search. I would also guesstimate that approx 90% of the problems brought to this forum by members are solved without use of the terminal.

Very few times have I gotten help without the use of the Terminal

This forum has upwards of 40,000 members, and the vast majority are beyond generous with their time in helping others. The number of threads/posts etc etc are more than fair proof of that.

Getting help on a forum is one thing (and I've appreciated the people who have helped me in the past), I'm talking about teaching Linux to a group of average computer users who are interested in learning it. If there were workshops happening all over the world and during a few times a year, then Linux should be making leaps and bounds, right? That doesn't seem to be happening because there's too many distros to count, and Linux is made for geeks and programmers.

The code quality?...you obviously mean the code which makes up the Linux Kernel. Try taking that up with Linus Torvalds. The code quality is what presents to us all the many, many Linux OS's which rarely if ever crash and on the whole present a remarkably low problem count.

I'm talking about the code for individual programs, not the code for the kernel. One example is LibreOffice being bare bones and basic, and each new version looks exactly the same (maybe a few differences and improvements here and there). What's even worse is if you want to get plugins, upgrades, etc, you have to download them from the website. Newer versions of Microsoft Office look different from one another, and have those plugins and upgrades preinstalled. I can't understand why no Linux user hasn't gone out of their way to make programs that blow Big Tech's programs out of the water (at least that would get some people interested in switching to Linux).

The very fact that Linux has the users that it does with the massive contributions that they make, makes a nonsense of that statement.

The gaps are slowly being filled, but there's a lack of 3rd party application support, audio support, driver support (such as me mentioning HP's printer driver sucks), and wireless support. Again, this mostly stems from Linux having too many distros, because it makes these kinds of developments more difficult for the programmers. However, "freedom of choice" seems to justify Linux users shooting themselves in the foot, and in-turn cause them to miss a lot of good opportunities.

 

[f33dm3bits]

The OS you describe in the topic title already exists: ReactOS.

 

[Deleted member 111282]

The OS you describe in the topic title already exists: ReactOS.

I'm well aware of that! As I said at the very beginning, it never got off of the ground, is still being used for testing purposes, and it's forks are no better off. That adds nothing to the conversation when I already pointed that out.

The only reason why I decided not to make any forks of it, or even just extract the kernel and base the OS around that, is because Microsoft owns the patent rights to the kernel, and I don't want to get sued for patent theft.

 

[wizardfromoz]

but I'm not fine with Linux being an incoherent mess of distros

The word you are looking for is incohesive - incoherent is when a person mumbles and cannot be understood.

This article might help you learn a little about BSD options

https://laptop.ninja/the-5-best-bsd-distributions/

The author Matthew Garrett, is Linux Torvalds' lieutenant. He or Linus sign off on all changes to the Linux kernel.

Cheers

Wizard

(This is a long) BTW:

I have a learning disorder - (Adult) ADD/ADHD, as well as 7 other Mental Health disorders, a couple of which include procrastination. Been using Linux for 11 years and exclusively for over 7.

Ask anyone who has been here for 3 to 4 years when was the last time Wizard had a support question for his own problems? Likely answer is never. Why? Because I have trained myself in problem-solving, both through the CLI and in GUI solutions. I have also become adept with keywords used in Google.

That being said, if I had/have a problem with my own environment, I know that the people here have got my back.

 

[Deleted member 111282]

The word you are looking for is incohesive - incoherent is when a person mumbles and cannot be understood.

This article might help you learn a little about BSD options

https://laptop.ninja/the-5-best-bsd-distributions/

The author Matthew Garrett, is Linux Torvalds' lieutenant. He or Linus sign off on all changes to the Linux kernel.

Actually, after looking further into BSD, and how it too has numerous derivatives and a community treating it's OS like an exclusive niche, I've decided "I'll just hire someone to create a kernel from scratch."

 

[KGIII]

Because I have trained myself in problem-solving, both through the CLI and in GUI solutions.

Yip. It's not hard. To date, I've asked zero support questions on this site. In my life, I think I've asked two - total. One was a scripting question and the other nobody could figure out until I eventually solved it on my own.

Linux is not hard. I am not sure how people make it hard.

Edit: I figure I should clarify. I've asked tons of questions - just not support questions.

 

[Deleted member 111282]

Linux is not hard. I am not sure how people make it hard.

After using Linux for 10 years, I agree its not that hard to learn when you develop enough patience to unlearn everything from Windows. However, the lack of support, the numerous distros causing the lack of support, and the numerous package managers are a few examples of how it's more of a challenge than it needs to be.

 

[f33dm3bits]

and the numerous package managers are a few examples of how it's more of a challenge than it needs to be.

I have only used apt-get and yum while working with GNU/Linux, a year and half ago I switched to a distribution using pacman as it's package manager. I was able to get used to a different package manager within a few days of using it for the first time, a month ago I decided I wanted to test out Opensuse in a virtual machine. I then played around with zypper for the first time, it isn't that hard to switch around from one package manager to the next. If you know how one works you will be able to figure out how another one works because because it's just basic command-line usage, if you don't know basic command-line usage then yes it may be a challenge but then you are more likely to be using one of the graphical interfaces(front-ends) to manage your software.

It would be nice for many users to have native support for Microsoft Office/Office 365 and Adobe Photoshop Suite and for other software there are plenty alternatives. When it comes to games it would be nice if they made native ports of new Windows games for GNU/Linux but it's not something people are going to die over since Proton allows you to run a big library of games that don't have native GNU/Linux support. The only thing that is annoying for most people is that Anti-Cheat software doesn't work with Proton so hopefully they will eventually find a solution for that whether it be running native or through Proton or by some other means.

 

[wizardfromoz]

If you are using the CLI for package management, and move around between different Linux "families" - Debian, RPM, Arch &c - it is a good idea to bookmark the following Arch page

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Pacman/Rosetta

You'll see why once you read it.

As for GUI-based package managers, they are pretty similar, with only minor features added or missing.

Wizard