Why exactly are people advocating for Wayland? For me, and from what I can tell other people, X11/XLibre works just fine for what people do. What is the appeal to Wayland and what exactly is different from X? I'm a somewhat new Linux user so I can't grasp the concepts many people already can. Thanks!
Why do people hype up Wayland?
- Thread starter fruqal22
- Start date
- Xlib - the basic C library for X11 protocol
- xcb (X C Bindings) - the "modern" replacement for Xlib
- Xrandr - display configuration/resolution management
- Xinerama - multi-monitor support (older approach)
- Xrender - 2D rendering with alpha compositing
- XFixes - miscellaneous fixes/extensions
- Xft - FreeType font rendering
- Xi (XInput) - input device handling
- Xext - various X extensions
- Xtst - testing/automation (XTEST extension)
- Xmu, Xaw - X miscellaneous utilities, Athena widgets
- ICE, SM - Inter-Client Exchange, Session Management
- Xdmcp - X Display Manager Control Protocol
Some haven't been updated in over a decade, some are broken, most haven't had security updates in a LONG time.
Some of the devs has even passed on. Some of it's political, I'm not updating my library, because I don't like the way you implemented this. So it's never been changed in over a decade.
Wayland, streamlined, less resources, often faster, the devs are all onboard with each other.
Wayland used to have compatibility problems a few years ago, but honeslty, I can't think of anything that doesn't run uder it.
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An older topic but still useful.
If you're a new Linux users you shouldn't even care to know the difference as Wayland is the future for most people. If you care about gaming, Wayland generally gives better performance for gaming. I know a Youtuber who streams gaming on Linux with an old Nvidia 1060 GTX and he's tried gaming and streaming and the performance goes down the drain with X11 and his laptop can't handle that, he doesn't have that issue with Wayland.
If you're a new Linux users you shouldn't even care to know the difference as Wayland is the future for most people. If you care about gaming, Wayland generally gives better performance for gaming. I know a Youtuber who streams gaming on Linux with an old Nvidia 1060 GTX and he's tried gaming and streaming and the performance goes down the drain with X11 and his laptop can't handle that, he doesn't have that issue with Wayland.
I decided to check to see how Google would answer this question. (I expected a blurb at the top.) So, I headed to Google and entered in OP's question.
Sure enough, there's a blurb at the top (at my location). It appears to explain it well enough.
Sure enough, there's a blurb at the top (at my location). It appears to explain it well enough.
Condobloke
Well-Known Member
Because they like to argue ?
perhaps they have a thing about two flies crawling up a wall....which one will reach the top first? .......
.....with its inbuilt unpredictability.....
perhaps they have a thing about two flies crawling up a wall....which one will reach the top first? .......
.....with its inbuilt unpredictability.....
I think one fly is all but dead.
The last update to 7.7 was 2012
Yeah, but don't forget the fork Xlibre.
I wish them the best, but I dont know of any distro that includes it by default.
The Puppy community has been experimenting with Wayland for a while now.....and also, more recently, with XLibre.
I still say it's a personal thing. It's great that both exist, side-by-side.....although it does necessitate building your distro for one OR the other. To the best of my knowledge, it's not so easy to swap display servers as it is to swap DEs....
With Redmond, it's ALWAYS been a case of "We know what's best for you. This is how we've designed it to work; this is how you'll get it, and this is how you WILL use it, whether you like it or not".
The Linux kernel and the open-source community have always fostered a far more relaxed approach, letting an interlocking series of modular projects 'chop'n'change' as the user wished.....giving the end-user full control over their computing experience.
Of course, with Wayland it's like any major architectural change. Once it's release-ready, it slowly gets adopted. More people try it, and the snowball effect comes into play. Pretty soon, developers are ONLY writing code for the "new" architecture (because, as with more and more modern software, it's being created specifically for ease of use by developers and admins; not the end-user).....and another chapter bites the dust. Standardisation across the community does allow for more widespread adoption of newer software, because everybody is "singing from the same hymn-sheet".
Yes, with more and more Windows 'refugees' testing out the waters, if you want to retain their interest you HAVE to cater for their expectations. High-quality video playback, with smooth reproduction & seamless ease-of-use across multiple monitors (which seems to be a 'thing' these days. Not something that I, personally, feel any need for, but that's just me of course). High-fidelity audio reproduction. A faultless gaming experience......AND they expect all their favourite software is going to work flawlessly OOTB, because most assume they're getting a free version of Windows! And so on & so on....
Sound familiar? Windows users are used to all this, they take it for granted, and complain long and loud when they don't get it.
I understand where Red Hat, in particular, are coming from with all this. First PulseAudio (followed by PipeWire); systemd (which has taken on a life of its own, and now seems to want to control absolutely everything, and yes; I get it.....Red Hat is primarily enterprise orientated, so admins take front and centre stage here) and now Wayland. The way to keep disgruntled Windows refugees within the fold is to cater for their needs.....and from what I understand, certain Red Hat devs have for long enough espoused the view that all distros should combine into one, with all community effort directed to one set of code......making it a direct competitor to Windows (and controlled, naturally, BY Red Hat).
I understand the desire for this. But to my way of thinking, the modern architectures, while making everything easier to maintain, are also decimating the software's long-standing feature-sets and abilities.
Under X11, we had marvellous stuff like Compiz; wobbly windows, the famous spinning cube, all kinds of fancy effects that had many Windows user's jaws dropping to the ground. From my understanding, none of this is even possible any longer with Wayland.....and that makes me a little bit sad.
Mike.
I still say it's a personal thing. It's great that both exist, side-by-side.....although it does necessitate building your distro for one OR the other. To the best of my knowledge, it's not so easy to swap display servers as it is to swap DEs....
With Redmond, it's ALWAYS been a case of "We know what's best for you. This is how we've designed it to work; this is how you'll get it, and this is how you WILL use it, whether you like it or not".
The Linux kernel and the open-source community have always fostered a far more relaxed approach, letting an interlocking series of modular projects 'chop'n'change' as the user wished.....giving the end-user full control over their computing experience.
Of course, with Wayland it's like any major architectural change. Once it's release-ready, it slowly gets adopted. More people try it, and the snowball effect comes into play. Pretty soon, developers are ONLY writing code for the "new" architecture (because, as with more and more modern software, it's being created specifically for ease of use by developers and admins; not the end-user).....and another chapter bites the dust. Standardisation across the community does allow for more widespread adoption of newer software, because everybody is "singing from the same hymn-sheet".
Yes, with more and more Windows 'refugees' testing out the waters, if you want to retain their interest you HAVE to cater for their expectations. High-quality video playback, with smooth reproduction & seamless ease-of-use across multiple monitors (which seems to be a 'thing' these days. Not something that I, personally, feel any need for, but that's just me of course). High-fidelity audio reproduction. A faultless gaming experience......AND they expect all their favourite software is going to work flawlessly OOTB, because most assume they're getting a free version of Windows! And so on & so on....
Sound familiar? Windows users are used to all this, they take it for granted, and complain long and loud when they don't get it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I understand where Red Hat, in particular, are coming from with all this. First PulseAudio (followed by PipeWire); systemd (which has taken on a life of its own, and now seems to want to control absolutely everything, and yes; I get it.....Red Hat is primarily enterprise orientated, so admins take front and centre stage here) and now Wayland. The way to keep disgruntled Windows refugees within the fold is to cater for their needs.....and from what I understand, certain Red Hat devs have for long enough espoused the view that all distros should combine into one, with all community effort directed to one set of code......making it a direct competitor to Windows (and controlled, naturally, BY Red Hat).
I understand the desire for this. But to my way of thinking, the modern architectures, while making everything easier to maintain, are also decimating the software's long-standing feature-sets and abilities.
Under X11, we had marvellous stuff like Compiz; wobbly windows, the famous spinning cube, all kinds of fancy effects that had many Windows user's jaws dropping to the ground. From my understanding, none of this is even possible any longer with Wayland.....and that makes me a little bit sad.
Mike.
kibasnowpaw
Well-Known Member
i use xfce and x11for gaming to many problem on Wayland still if you ask me.
And this is the reason why I don't want Linux to start getting a higher percentage of users. The higher the number, the more "Windows-like" it will become. And I don't think I'm wrong.
@ron.alan :-
TBH, I agree with you. The above post was written from the POV of a "devil's advocate"; neither for OR against.....merely detailing the current situation as I see it. No doubt many will disagree with me.
Frankly, I prefer what I'm used to, which IS X11. I don't use multiple monitors.....which seems to be the "in-thing" ATM.
There's no doubt in MY mind, however, that more & more software IS being written specifically to make the lives of developers and sysadmins as easy as possible, rather than the end-user's. Given that the latter group outnumber the former two groups by a factor of thousands to one, it seems strangely lop-sided to me...
(shrug...)
Mike.
TBH, I agree with you. The above post was written from the POV of a "devil's advocate"; neither for OR against.....merely detailing the current situation as I see it. No doubt many will disagree with me.
Frankly, I prefer what I'm used to, which IS X11. I don't use multiple monitors.....which seems to be the "in-thing" ATM.
There's no doubt in MY mind, however, that more & more software IS being written specifically to make the lives of developers and sysadmins as easy as possible, rather than the end-user's. Given that the latter group outnumber the former two groups by a factor of thousands to one, it seems strangely lop-sided to me...
(shrug...)
Mike.
wendy-lebaron
Well-Known Member
sadly, something else will happen. to have people taking sides. about "older is better." but linux should be about trotting out the latest technology, right? or about preserving what microsoft call "e-waste"? or in between?
i can't be arsed anymore. about which is better, "x12" or the older one. i know my computers can't handle wayland. i have to buy a starfighter or one of those other computers. i don't know.
i tried q4os "andromeda" with kde plasma. it was a while. before i noticed i was running wayland session. but dolphin acted funny sometimes. at least it didn't suddenly give up. back to sddm log-in screen. pclinuxos "darkstar" from oct-2024 did that. which made me want to get away fast.
but what was more annoying. was switching to "x11" (legacy) mode. then having the stupid file manager. doing the same behavior that irritated me. of choosing two disparate entries of files to send to the trash. then after those files are moved. the file manager selects the files listed in between. what the hey, but why do something like this?
i read a couple of reviews by "dedomeido." from what it's gathered. i'm becoming more annoyed by kde becoming more like gnome. than their trying to impose "systemd" and wayland sooner or later.
i can't be arsed anymore. about which is better, "x12" or the older one. i know my computers can't handle wayland. i have to buy a starfighter or one of those other computers. i don't know.
i tried q4os "andromeda" with kde plasma. it was a while. before i noticed i was running wayland session. but dolphin acted funny sometimes. at least it didn't suddenly give up. back to sddm log-in screen. pclinuxos "darkstar" from oct-2024 did that. which made me want to get away fast.
but what was more annoying. was switching to "x11" (legacy) mode. then having the stupid file manager. doing the same behavior that irritated me. of choosing two disparate entries of files to send to the trash. then after those files are moved. the file manager selects the files listed in between. what the hey, but why do something like this?
i read a couple of reviews by "dedomeido." from what it's gathered. i'm becoming more annoyed by kde becoming more like gnome. than their trying to impose "systemd" and wayland sooner or later.
Generally speaking, distros with Wayland (according to other people testing) will use fewer resources.
It's also important to remember that Wayland is just some protocols.
Whilst wayland is certainly a development that has momentum and advantages to replace X11, and is predicted to do so, there are still aspects of it that engage some user's reluctance to make the switch just yet. Some observations that may be of interest follow.
A basic difference between the protocols is that X11 allows any X client freedoms that wayland deliberately forbids. Most of what wayland forbids are security trade-offs rather than just missing features, but some features do get caught and stumped and/or can't run. The following is a table which I've made from recent research which looks at features of interest to me so it's in no way comprehensive, but hopefully of interest:
Code:
Feature X11 wayland what breaks
======= === ======== ==========
Global keylogging:- Any app can read No general keylogging xbindkeys
all keyboard input. APIs. some tiling window managers
Window movement: Any client can move, A client can only wmctrl
raise, lower windows. control its own xdotool
surfaces. smart window placement tools
Screen capture: Any app can capture Screen capture needs Some screenshot apps, e.g.
any window or screen. compositor mediation. ffmpeg -f x11grab
Inject inputs: Apps can move the Only compositor xdotool
mouse. approved mechanisms GUI macros to move mouse
allowed.
Network
transparency: Run apps remotely, e.g. No built-in network networking with X
ssh -X .... transparency. Needs
additional software
like RDP, VNC etc.
Root window: Draw on root window No root window. Root window.
and create fake
backgrounds.
Uniform behaviour: If it works once, it Depends on compositor. Numerous window managers.
works for all Features vary over
window managers. compositors and
protocols.The real and practical advantages of wayland AIUI are the security aspects which forbid keyloggers, spyware, malicious screen scraping, and the cleaner screen experience with better latency and smoother operation. There are numerous reports of those advantages online both in the technical data and user descriptions.
There are many X window managers that cannot run in wayland being fundamentally incompatible because they "talk" to an xserver that doesn't exist in wayland, and they use concepts that don't exist in wayland like root windows, X window IDs and client-side window controls.
Xwayland lets X apps run under wayland, but it does not let X window managers manage wayland windows. Running an X window manager in xwayland would only let the window manage that particular window inside that xwayland instance, not the windows of the whole system. That would make it rather useless as a system window manager.
The main window manager used here is dwm, which is for X. There is a wayland clone called dwl which works well in the basics maintaining windows in the same way as dwm, but dwl lacks features like a title bar which, if desired, needs to be installed as another app, and unfortunately the other apps that try and cover the matter still don't include all the useful features creatable in dwm's titlebar in my experience.
EDIT: The latest titlebar software for dwl (on wayland) from github, tried on a machine here after this post above was written, is a great improvement. Progress has been made, and it's very pleasing.
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Condobloke
Well-Known Member
k.i.s.s.
Still applies, despite all the too's & fro's about wayland, x11, etc etc /.....................etc !
My approach is : If it works for me ....I will use it. I could not give a rats if someone in the hierarchy frowns upon it. (rats: Aussie for I don't care....I could be more in your face, but I will behave)
Linux = Freedom
Until something happens to stop us talking/debating/disagreeing/complaining/bitching/whining,being turd burgers/arguing about the two flies crawling up the wall.... Freedom will Triumph.
Still applies, despite all the too's & fro's about wayland, x11, etc etc /.....................etc !
My approach is : If it works for me ....I will use it. I could not give a rats if someone in the hierarchy frowns upon it. (rats: Aussie for I don't care....I could be more in your face, but I will behave)
Linux = Freedom
Until something happens to stop us talking/debating/disagreeing/complaining/bitching/whining,being turd burgers/arguing about the two flies crawling up the wall.... Freedom will Triumph.
kibasnowpaw
Well-Known Member
I don’t actually disagree with the sentiment here. “If it works for me, I’ll use it” is a very Linux take, and freedom of choice is kind of the whole point.
That said, in a discussion about why Wayland gets hyped, this comes across as a bit orthogonal to the topic. KISS and personal indifference explain how an individual chooses their setup, not why certain technologies get momentum, adoption, or advocacy within the ecosystem.
The Wayland vs X11 discussion isn’t really about hierarchy approval or telling people what they’re allowed to run. It’s more about trade-offs, maturity, compatibility, and long-term direction versus short-term stability. Those debates still matter even if, at the end of the day, everyone rightly uses what works for them.
Freedom includes disagreement and analysis too not just opting out of the conversation.
Seems somewhat academic to me.
RHEL 9 has X11 in it. 9.0 support ends 31 May 2027, but each dot point release (9.1, 9.2 and so on) extends that out by a year, so Redhat is committed to providing support for X up to at least 2032. RHEL 10 dropped it for Wayland.
X11/X.org is in maintenance mode, no more feature development, and that means just that - maintenance and security fixes.
A lot of things can happen or change between now and 2032.
Cheers
Wizard
RHEL 9 has X11 in it. 9.0 support ends 31 May 2027, but each dot point release (9.1, 9.2 and so on) extends that out by a year, so Redhat is committed to providing support for X up to at least 2032. RHEL 10 dropped it for Wayland.
X11/X.org is in maintenance mode, no more feature development, and that means just that - maintenance and security fixes.
A lot of things can happen or change between now and 2032.
Cheers
Wizard
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