ELF, among other meaningless communication barriers

[AlphaObeisance]

file /bin/ls

Personally. I'd say calling ELF "Linux 101" is a bit of a gatekeeping stretch. Yes, it's fundamental; but if people rarely or never leave user friendly distros or don't compile from source it's unlikely they'll ever encounter a circumstance in which "ELF" is brought to their attention.

So to call it "Basic Linux 101" is pretty tasteless and unhelpful; and I say this being an Arch user.

Frankly, Beanburrito's right in that it's a fundamental part of Linux; while simultaneously Condobloke is also 100% right in that when talking about a niche topic that 99% of Linux users don't/won't encounter; it's best to be thorough.

If you wish to flex a superiority complex, I might suggest the Arch forums. There's enough collective knowledge here that no matter how much you think you know; there's always going to be someone who has an edge in a different field.

Might be best to just thank a respected, well established user for suggesting you be a bit more helpful when contributing to conversation by breaking down acronyms (at least once) in discussion so that the less experienced and privy users have that extra bread crumb to follow instead of having to google "WTFYMRTFM?!?" when reading your input.

 

[beanburrito]

Might be best to just thank a respected, well established user for suggesting you be a bit more helpful when contributing to conversation by breaking down acronyms (at least once) in discussion so that the less experienced and privy users have that extra bread crumb to follow instead of having to google

In my thread here, CaffeineAddict poised the question, "Not sure if they deal elf's?" meaning he/she knows what it is and wanted my input, to which I responded with basic information. Others ran with it from there so I tried to provide a basic ELF 101 tutorial which was overlooked and dismissed by one user, also claiming I failed to "prove" something. So, take that as you may.

If you wish to flex a superiority complex, I might suggest the Arch forums.

I have nothing to flex. If person A says they've never heard of something in "their world" for X amount of years vs. what I have to say which yes is quite basic knowledge if you read books/documentation, it's quite dismissive of my information. What exactly have I flexed? One person and their world does not negate the value of basic information. What I see repeated is, "I" "I" "me" "my" and that's not reality.

 

[AlphaObeisance]

In my thread here, CaffeineAddict poised the question, "Not sure if they deal elf's?" meaning he/she knows what it is and wanted my input, to which I responded with basic information. Others ran with it from there so I tried to provide a basic ELF 101 tutorial which was overlooked and dismissed by one user, also claiming I failed to "prove" something. So, take that as you may.


I have nothing to flex. If person A says they've never heard of something in "their world" for X amount of years vs. what I have to say which yes is quite basic knowledge if you read books/documentation, it's quite dismissive of my information. What exactly have I flexed? One person and their world does not negate the value of basic information. What I see repeated is, "I" "I" "me" "my" and that's not reality.

While I validate your point on a personal level, you're still clearly conveying it from a bit of a defensive standpoint. Personally, I think the topic itself is a bit of a moot point; I basically have Google on speed dial these days, so if I don't understand something, it's just second nature to pistol whip it with my search engine until I can comprehend. But that is just not the way of the average Linux user, brotato. At the end of the day, it's all just data.

 

[beanburrito]

While I validate your point on a personal level, you're still clearly conveying it from a bit of a defensive standpoint.

Was I incorrect in anything which I wrote? I'm willing to let it go. Where is the defense against those who just throw up their hands when I pass them links to information saying it's old and I must prove something, and on and on how can I not be on the defense?

But that is just not the way of the average Linux user, brotato. At the end of the day, it's all just data.

Peace out my friend.

 

[CaffeineAddict]

Enough about ELF files, why not for change talk about object files a bit?

 

[PuppyHome]

Enough about ELF files, why not for change talk about object files a bit?

That'd be waaaaayyyyy off-topic mate! As per the title.

 

[CaffeineAddict]

In my thread here, @CaffeineAddict poised the question, "Not sure if they deal elf's?" meaning he/she knows what it is and wanted my input, to which I responded with basic information.

I missed it yesterday but yeah, you're right, it was me who started to talk about ELF.

I'm sorry you guys fight over this.

Anyway, back to topic, whether various abbreviations and slang should be forbidden on forums is up to Admins and mods to decide.
I'm quite used to abbreviations so I'm not 100% for it.
There are abbreviations that rarely who knows and there are those which we all know, like VM, SSD, PC, forbidding these makes no sense to me (and providing their definitions as a rule defeats the purpose of abbreviations)

But other less known, who ever uses them should also include their meaning once (or wiki link), e.g.:

Let's talk about ELF's (Executable and Linkable Format)
<snip>
ELF has been defined, subsequent use of it in a post/thread is no longer problem

This should be enough for anyone reading a thread to catch up.

 

[wizardfromoz]

I guess general knowledge about the filesystem is restricted to wizards only:

(Wizard appears in a puff of smoke)

I heard that...just misplaced my key to the space-time continuum or I would have been here sooner.

I knew of the acronym ELF - just not what it stands for, nor anything about it. Does that mean I have failed Linux 101?

I'd doubt it. I've been using Linux since 2010, and exclusively since 2014. I have just installed what is currently the 84th distro in my stable on this rig.

I have not ever read a book on Linux, nor do I have any immediate plans to do so, although I may, one millennium.

When I am in teaching mode, I will often preface it with a small glossary of terms, and names. That can be verified by going to our Search facility top-right, typing in Keyword glossary, and Posted by wizardfromoz.

You don't need to go to those lengths but a bracketed explanation of an acronym, when used the first time, will assist others, who can then further explore options should they be interested.

Those are just a couple of thoughts, but I have eye of newt and tongue of toad simmering in my cauldron, and if you overcook the newt, it goes really squishy.

Cheers

Wiz

 

[ron.alan]

I've been using Linux for over 12 years now and this is the first time I've ever heard the term "ELF" file.

 

[Rocketing-warp9]

For. A second I thought it was the movie lol... but now it make sense!

 

[f33dm3bits]

ELF 101 is basic Linux knowledge.

The Linux user has a right to know what types of files exist on their system! Some people only want to "punch the monkey" with GUIs and that's fine, but If we start drawing lines in the sand over what basic knowledge can or can't be discussed, where does it end?

If you don't know something, it's not my fault. 13 years is enough to have picked up a large Linux/Unix book(s) and read about the filesystem. Plenty of that information is online, but with 13 years, you should know that.

Not everyone using Linux has the same goals or has the same interests in the different areas when you can learn things about Linux and some people just want to use their computer nothing more, which is perfectly fine. So no shame if someone doesn't know this or that,so can you dial it down a bit as not everyone is required to know x,y or z because they have been using Linux for so many years. Thanks!

Was I incorrect in anything which I wrote? I'm willing to let it go.

Yes you are forgetting that what I mentioned above, that not everyone has the same goals when it comes to what they want to learn about Linux and that different people have different interests and goals. So don't expect because you have interest in Linux and have been spending time on x,y or z that someone else will do the same, they might be more interested in another topic you don't have an interest in.

Personally. I'd say calling ELF "Linux 101" is a bit of a gatekeeping stretch.

I only knew that it had to do with binaries and linked libraries and been using Linux for years. Also not something a normal user cares about, seems more something packagers or those writing the programs would care about and be interested in.

 

[Smilax]

I've been a Linux user so long that if you run my movie backwards a good while it turns into Netware. I'm just now learning about ELF myself. I can't speak for others, but in my case I probably have read something about it somewhere but it didn't serve a personal need at the moment. To be brutally honest, it still doesn't but that's because I'm a simpleton. My HCI ((human / computer interface), LOL (laughing out loud)) is a modern approximation of a Wyse terminal. Well, maybe not quite that bad, but pretty spartan. I don't stray far from the basics and just run a couple of PCs and a router now. My first love will always be Storage.

I learned I can't out drink this fire hose, and not to feel bad when I don't know something. I accept that I Am a Perpetual Newbie in this world. It's the nature of the environment. I guess I'm here in hopes of encouraging and helping new users coming from Windows World. To me this place is a school where you set your own curriculum and decide how far you want to go. ‍

 

[AlphaObeisance]

I only knew that it had to do with binaries and linked libraries and been using Linux for years. Also not something a normal user cares about, seems more something packagers or those writing the programs would care about and be interested in.

I think the OP just wanted to share some knowledge on a niche topic and merely got a bit perturbed that it was above most peoples pay-grade or levels of curiosity. While Linux.org is my absolutely favorite resource for community; it's not exactly the place I would go to have discussions on binary or manually compiling for that matter for this very reason. It would seem we've spent more time discussing the lack of explanation of an acronym and invested more time in lecturing the need to do so than observing something that clearly the bulk of users here haven't ever heard of.

The fact that ELF ( Executable and Linkable Format) is in fact the standard file format for executables, object code and shared libraries ect. Containing metadata, instructions and maps that the OS needs to load and run code correctly is actually a pretty awesome topic and I understand Beans frustrations for it's lack of reception merely because they didn't spell out the acronym which resulted in an essentially hijacked topic due to poor reception.

I'd be hard pressed to dismiss ELF as some kind of meaningless or moot pointmerely because most people don't realize what it does for the very system they use every day.

It's a cool tid bit of information I'm personally glad to see surface as it's a curious bit. Worth knowing? Meh, not really for consumers. But fascinating for Linux Power Users.

Personally, I love linux enough that I'm grateful anytime some unknown fact about Linux that our systems rely on is brought to the spotlight for a moment or two.

This post marks a good article that I feel holds salt as to what's happening here..

 

[CaffeineAddict]

While Linux.org is my absolutely favorite resource for community; it's not exactly the place I would go to have discussions on binary or manually compiling for that matter for this very reason.

When I first time met with Linux (backtrack) I recall browsing various Linux forums, websites blogs etc. about how to fix this or that because was running into a lot of issues but knew nothing about Linux at all.

There was a lot talk about compiling software from source, it felt like a culture that I didn't yet understand.
Seeing someone post ./configure && make && make install was so common to see, I felt this was actually the standard way to install stuff.

I wonder where did that culture go, is nobody building from source these days anymore? what happened?
What happened to supers users of the past, where did they go?

 

[beanburrito]

I wonder where did that culture go, is nobody building from source these days anymore? what happened?
What happened to supers users of the past, where did they go?

Many of them don't use web forums anymore or never did to begin with.

 

[AlphaObeisance]

is nobody building from source these days anymore?

I mean. I'm here? Lol. I still compile from source, and I'm learning to do so better. Even run a custom kernel for my infrastructure.

It's just hard to talk about this stuff because it's so far over most peoples heads we usually get labeled as "Elitists" because we tend to be considered to brute for social consumption; as my track record here sometimes shows . I try to be helpful and friendly but sometimes the "FFSJRTFM" really jumps out of me.

I relate to consumers because I like to be casual, but I've grown so much these past 6 years that I feel truly alone some days. Make no mistake I'm no "expert", I've just gotten really good at google fu and I tug on the coat tails of cool people here when I need some clarification.

Idk why, but my entire linux experience has been done "the hard way". Everyone recommended "Linux Mint" and "Ubuntu" as the "best beginner distro" and I fell into that trap. The only reason I'm where I am today is because I finally decided to abandon the hive mind of distro hoppers and casual consumers and dive into a distro that would teach me the ins and outs top to bottom; and it set some kind of fire within me that I just can't seem to quench.

Every stupid little thing that makes me curious, must be studied. I may not fully comprehend "how" something works sometimes, but I'm generally capable of digesting the processes.

I've spent the past week looking in the mirror and combing through my systems to update everything to liberate it from old habits, like mounting everything in /mnt like some noob just because that's literally what everyone told me to do when I first came to linux lol and I only just recently realized I was still doing that and decided last night to clean up and use the systems proper. , I spend more time googling this one thing I read about that one thing some time ago than I do playing an expert that knows everything.

That's the only reason I can avoid (usually) the "Elitist Arch Linux" mindset we Arch Users are so typically saddled with. No point in harping on noobs for not knowing something when I can kick the noob within me most every day about something ruther lol.

Many of them don't use web forums anymore or never did to begin with.

This is quite literally the only forum I use, and it's only for community and to try and retain information by way of helping others. I find if I don't practice something regularly, I tend to forget. Therefore trying to help new users keeps information at the forefront of my mind.

Until I found Linux.org, it was just me and the Arch Wiki. Seems everywhere but Linux.org it's full of unrelatable furry wierdos going on about DEI and whatever other nonsense. I think I call this place home because the administrative/moderator panel consists of greybeards old enough to understand why modern tech irritates the crap out of me, and tend to appreciate my candid nature despite it sometimes being a bit eh... gruff. I've had mentors here have to step in to douse me with water a time or two... or three

 

[KGIII]

is nobody building from source these days anymore?

There are whole distros where you are expected to compile what you need. Gentoo and Exherbo are two that I can think of. There's LFS, but that's not necessarily a distro.

Anyhow, the people maintaining the repos do the compiling for us these days.

 

[beanburrito]

Seems everywhere but Linux.org it's full of unrelatable furry wierdos going on about DEI and whatever other nonsense.

IRC, mailing lists, etc. are where you'll find the lot of them. Where it's not as 'noob' friendly depending on how long you've been using computers. The bar is a little higher, there aren't flashy awards for posting or account histories people brag about, and so on. It's just meat and potatoes, and for most, that suffices. I'm on a few forums but honestly, I tend to remain in IRC/mailing lists.

I'm happy I could impart some knowledge here on the boards. Linux.org is one of the few which haven't jumped ship to Discourse or whatever it's called, an ugly behemoth of board software.

 

[AlphaObeisance]

IRC, mailing lists, etc. are where you'll find the lot of them.

I aint been around long, only been on Linux 6 years and I was basically a lobotomized end user when I used Windows who thought that browsing the web and gaming was "using a computer".

I looked into IRC some time ago, but it was above my pay grade at the time. I eventually got into servers through my home lab build and now I self host everything and tend to prefer interfacing with it via Matterhorn; so it's likely IRC may be more up my alley now anyway.

I legitimately get iritated when someone tells me to deploy something using docker, in my head I think "how freaking lazy can you be?" but even I tend to do that more often than I used to; where as previously I built 100% of my databases from scratch because I wanted the skillset.

You'd not believe how many people scoff at me after asking why my "desktop" on Hyprland doesn't have a task bar and I tell them "because I don't need one, I live in a terminal". The average end user just doesn't comprehend that all that extra fluff is just that, fluff. I do almost everything out of two windows. My terminal, and my browser. I am quite lazy in development though, as I edit big projects using Zeditor, but default to Nano/VIM (when forced) to manage basic configuration.

I'm reaching a milestone in my journey where the "Advanced" users are starting to look more like skilled distro hoppers than Power users; and I'm starting to feel like an incredibly niche group of Linux users that strive to literally live out of a terminal. The only thing that keeps me in the GUI is my love for aesthetics, that's it. You'll never catch me browsing the web in a CLI based browser, but my clock, calendar, chat, and so on so forth is all CLI based.

I'm knowledgeable enough to know I stand above the average, but humble enough to know that just because someone uses Linux Mint doesn't mean they can't Linux circles around me. Some advanced users just got comfortable with convenience, that's all.

 

[beanburrito]

I aint been around long, only been on Linux 6 years

I've been tinkering with systems in various incarnations since the 1970's. Linux since the 1990's. I'm slowly moving my systems away from Linux, except for a few simple use cases, but it's been a delightful journey. Honestly, I had more fun with systems back in the 1980s/1990s.