Condobloke
Well-Known Member
Perfect, Maarten !
Age Verification - Linux.org's Official Stance
- Thread starter Rob
- Start date
Condobloke
Well-Known Member
.....yet?
It seems the wheels are still turning, mike....and where almost the entire population and political expediency are concerned, anything is possible (?)
CaffeineAddict
Well-Known Member
systemd only provides the foundation, but other user software is expected to make use of it, such as card reader for instance that reads government issued ID.
systemd isn't the actual software for age verification.
Thanks for allowing comment. I think some of the age verification laws will be challenged in the Court in the US. Hopefully calmer minds will prevail. It is another aspect of the state trying to do what has traditionally been a parental job. I understand that some parents don't do it too well. But don't think the State is the answer and Laws don't work in this case. JMHO.
CaffeineAddict
Well-Known Member
@kc1di
It doesn't work now, there already are ways to bypass age verif. but we should expect it to get enforced in the future with possible fines if one allows his child to use parents ID for bypass.
To my knowledge it's impossible to hack a card reader that reads a chip on your ID, and modern ID's all have the chip.
The chip was invented at first for identification to governmental administration sites, and now for age verif.
It wouldn't surprise me if one day may be impossible to use internet without inserting the ID into a reader, implemented at ISP level, ISP's would have to follow the law and there is nothing a user can do on their device to avoid it.
It doesn't work now, there already are ways to bypass age verif. but we should expect it to get enforced in the future with possible fines if one allows his child to use parents ID for bypass.
To my knowledge it's impossible to hack a card reader that reads a chip on your ID, and modern ID's all have the chip.
The chip was invented at first for identification to governmental administration sites, and now for age verif.
It wouldn't surprise me if one day may be impossible to use internet without inserting the ID into a reader, implemented at ISP level, ISP's would have to follow the law and there is nothing a user can do on their device to avoid it.
Will be curious to know how long it will be until they do, as I was expecting secure-boot to be enforced by now as well but you can still turn it off currently. They surely won't do it over night but in phases.
CaffeineAddict
Well-Known Member
Yeah, things like this never go over night but with little steps, step by step to upset as little people as possible.
Even corporations when they acquire another company don't immediately enforce their rules, recall when MS bought Skype, they basically destroyed it by enforcing their policies.
They learned on their mistakes, so they don't the same to github, but still we see a lot of repos being moved to gitlab, such things are sensitive and have consequences if done over night.
Really & truly, the whole thing is a right "bag'o'worms"...and it reeks of a "rush-job". I have to agree with @kc1di ; it definitely wasn't thought-out at all properly.
Everyone is familiar with the 'Big Four'; Windows, MacOS, iOS and Android. Between them, they account for something like 95% + of users, world-wide.
Somebody in the California state legislature - being aware of this - obviously investigated a bit further....and realised something. Each of these operating systems, as part of their initial set-up, requires creation of an online account (or at least, signing-in to an already existing account). Without doing so, the device won't function correctly.
Oh, perfect! Each of these operating systems is controlled by a company. We can bring pressure to bear on these companies, requiring them to add age-verification code into their set-up processes....or big fines and court cases will ensue.
The companies pretty much control their users. If we control the companies.....we'll control everyone. Great!
Imagine their disquiet upon discovering a whole tranche of 'alternative' operating systems out there that were NOT controlled by companies, and thus not susceptible to the kind of corporate pressure employed upon the Big Four. Why, the development teams aren't even in one geographical location....they're spread out all around the globe, thus sitting under hundreds of different nation-state legislations. Hmm... This isn't going to work with these, is it?
I can definitely see a whole bunch of legislative re-drafting & assorted jiggery-pokery coming soon. But that's not the end of it.....is it?
There are thousands of uses for computers. And relatively few of them revolve around going online.
The powers-that-be couldn't give a monkeys about someone that only ever uses a computer to create images of cute fluffy kittens. Or somebody who only uses it to play 'static', 'offline' games.
No; the ultimate goal, when it comes down to it - aside from the surveillance aspect, natch! - is control of internet access. And so I find myself agreeing with @CaffeineAddict ; I, too, think that ultimate control of this is going to devolve upon those who provide that access in the first place.....the ISPs. From being merely providers of said access - as they are now - they will ultimately become "gatekeepers" of the internet. And as companies, they will also become subject to corporate, legislative pressure to do exactly what "the Man" wants.
It's pretty much a foregone conclusion. And I can see it happening sooner rather than later.
I can also see the requirement for some kind of official ID card being plugged-in to your device all the time you're online. Sending telemetry to interested, "official" parties while you're on your favourite websites, so "the Man" can see everything you do.....in real time.
Likewise, I can foresee the requirement for this to be implemented at the motherboard level, and 3rd-party, aftermarket card-readers not being recognised AT ALL.....thereby necessitating the purchase of billions of new devices with this stuff built-in.
Sorts out two issues at the same time. It gives a shot in the arm to manufacturers, and gives nation-states the total control they all seem to want. Oh, but wait; AI is currently consuming all solid-state components.....so where will manufacturers source the components to build all these new, legally-mandated devices?
Heh. Eee, what a monumental f**k-up of almost Biblical proportions..!
(shakes head in disbelief....) Lol!!!
Mike.
Everyone is familiar with the 'Big Four'; Windows, MacOS, iOS and Android. Between them, they account for something like 95% + of users, world-wide.
Somebody in the California state legislature - being aware of this - obviously investigated a bit further....and realised something. Each of these operating systems, as part of their initial set-up, requires creation of an online account (or at least, signing-in to an already existing account). Without doing so, the device won't function correctly.
Oh, perfect! Each of these operating systems is controlled by a company. We can bring pressure to bear on these companies, requiring them to add age-verification code into their set-up processes....or big fines and court cases will ensue.
The companies pretty much control their users. If we control the companies.....we'll control everyone. Great!
Imagine their disquiet upon discovering a whole tranche of 'alternative' operating systems out there that were NOT controlled by companies, and thus not susceptible to the kind of corporate pressure employed upon the Big Four. Why, the development teams aren't even in one geographical location....they're spread out all around the globe, thus sitting under hundreds of different nation-state legislations. Hmm... This isn't going to work with these, is it?
I can definitely see a whole bunch of legislative re-drafting & assorted jiggery-pokery coming soon. But that's not the end of it.....is it?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There are thousands of uses for computers. And relatively few of them revolve around going online.
The powers-that-be couldn't give a monkeys about someone that only ever uses a computer to create images of cute fluffy kittens. Or somebody who only uses it to play 'static', 'offline' games.
No; the ultimate goal, when it comes down to it - aside from the surveillance aspect, natch! - is control of internet access. And so I find myself agreeing with @CaffeineAddict ; I, too, think that ultimate control of this is going to devolve upon those who provide that access in the first place.....the ISPs. From being merely providers of said access - as they are now - they will ultimately become "gatekeepers" of the internet. And as companies, they will also become subject to corporate, legislative pressure to do exactly what "the Man" wants.
It's pretty much a foregone conclusion. And I can see it happening sooner rather than later.
I can also see the requirement for some kind of official ID card being plugged-in to your device all the time you're online. Sending telemetry to interested, "official" parties while you're on your favourite websites, so "the Man" can see everything you do.....in real time.
Likewise, I can foresee the requirement for this to be implemented at the motherboard level, and 3rd-party, aftermarket card-readers not being recognised AT ALL.....thereby necessitating the purchase of billions of new devices with this stuff built-in.
Sorts out two issues at the same time. It gives a shot in the arm to manufacturers, and gives nation-states the total control they all seem to want. Oh, but wait; AI is currently consuming all solid-state components.....so where will manufacturers source the components to build all these new, legally-mandated devices?
Heh. Eee, what a monumental f**k-up of almost Biblical proportions..!
(shakes head in disbelief....) Lol!!!
Mike.
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I checked my Mint system and I don't have any of those -- and I'm fully updated.
@Condobloke is using Mint and he has those services, I forgot to check last time I was running Mint in a vm.
Yeah, I saw that. That's what made me look, and why I am now a bit curious regarding the reasons. It's a fully updated system. None of those services appears to be running, which is weird.
I don't think that repositories have the ability to serve software on a geolocation basis.
Condobloke
Well-Known Member
Curiouser and curiouser ...
I am just out of the sack now, turned my pc on, and thus far everything at least appears to be 'normal'
I am just out of the sack now, turned my pc on, and thus far everything at least appears to be 'normal'
I think it depends on what your system started out as. If the initial installation didn't include certain packages, and such packages weren't part of any dependency chain in subsequent upgrades, those packages wouldn't be included on the system. One would thus needed to have installed them separately I guess to have them. Updating and upgrading just upgrades packages that are already on the system, as well as any dependencies.
A quick check on AI suggests that Mint installer doesn't install systemd-userdb packages by default, so if they appear on a Mint system I guess they have been installed by the user or installed as a dependency.
Edit: just checked the list of packages on the installer here: https://github.com/linuxmint/mint-d...bian-live-13.0.0-cinnamon/filesystem.packages, and systemd-userdb does not appear.
Looking into what depends on systemd-userdbd on debian, only one package appears:
Code:
[~]$ apt rdepends systemd-userdbd
systemd-userdbd
Reverse Depends:
Depends: systemd-homed (= 260.1-1)
Recommends: libnss-systemd
Suggests: systemdOn the wider issue, AIUI the Californian law, the Digital Age Assurance Act (AB 1043), taking effect from 1/1/2027, requires implementation of something that resembles an API for apps, set in at the operating system level. The terminology in the act is "real-time application programming interface" which is in the second paragraph of the bill text shown here: https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260AB1043. That's appears to be a bit more than systemd offers currently.
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Condobloke
Well-Known Member
The first thing that springs to mind, is the 'state' of the initial install of LM22.3.....I had a strong feeling that all was not well and seriously considered rolling back to 22.2 etc
however, I hung in there and the 'flaky' situation eventually came good....after many...Many updates to the system files.
Then again, as a dependency for some app or other is also quite likely....without seeing an app name , I have no clue.
Lm22.3 runs like a champ ...99% of the time. That will keep me out of strife until LM23 drops
No sign of any phantom misnooks since the code work with Maarten @f33dm3bits , last night.
I feel quite safe. Maarten knows his onions.
(for those unacquainted with Australian slang, the above means that Maarten is extremely adept with the use of code etc etc)
I am with David - no entries result, on several of my Mints.
I am inclined to throw it out there that it is to do perhaps with PAM (Pluggable Authentication Module) activity to do with user-installed apps that Brian @Condobloke and Maarten @f33dm3bits have installed, whereas David and I have not.
An example could be a Password Manager such as Keepass.
That being said, that could be discussed elsewhere, so we do not derail this Thread, which is about Age Verification in Linux.
Cheers
Wizard
I am inclined to throw it out there that it is to do perhaps with PAM (Pluggable Authentication Module) activity to do with user-installed apps that Brian @Condobloke and Maarten @f33dm3bits have installed, whereas David and I have not.
An example could be a Password Manager such as Keepass.
That being said, that could be discussed elsewhere, so we do not derail this Thread, which is about Age Verification in Linux.
Cheers
Wizard
It doesn't appear that pam or keepass would call in systemd-userdb, though the following is from debian rather than mint:
Code:
[~]$ apt rdepends libpam-systemd
libpam-systemd
Reverse Depends:
Recommends: argyll
Recommends: udisks2
Recommends: systemd-sysv
|Recommends: python3-jarabe
Recommends: sddm
Suggests: profile-sync-daemon
Depends: pam-session-timelimit
Recommends: openssh-server
Depends: nix-setup-systemd
Recommends: network-manager
|Recommends: needrestart
Suggests: lxsession
|Depends: lightdm
Suggests: tpm2daemon
Suggests: gpg-agent
Suggests: dirmngr
Recommends: flatpak
Depends: debian-cloud-images-packages
Depends: dbus-user-session
[~]$ apt rdepends keepass2
keepass2
Reverse Depends:
Depends: keepass2-doc (= 2.60+dfsg-1)
Depends: keepass2-plugin-keepassrpc (>= 2.48)
Depends: keepass2-plugin-hibpofflinecheckThere do not appear to be any dependencies either way between systemd-userdbd and either libpam-system or keepass2, so neither of the latter two appear to draw in the former.
Perhaps check out post #33 above to see if that makes sense.
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That could be it. It's just a bog-standard install, just with the defaults, on my end. I've since installed a ton of software for testing purposes.
Ah, well... There's another thread where we can dive into this, I suppose.
D
Deleted member 197709
Guest
I normally ignore these topics but since it's asked, I'll add my thoughts.
I'm not totally against it as Children could deviously get access to computers and phones against the knowledge of their parents. We all know how much harmful junk is out there over the net not suitable for children.
For me personally, I'll never comply if it requires me giving out any personal info just to verify my age. On a side note, if I were a father, Id have one strict rule for my kids. The phone you have is for emergencies and will receive and make phone calls. It will never connect to the web! I'll make sure of that. When your on your own and leave the nest, your free. Till then. There is no bending that rule!
That's just me though. I'd shut my web access down before handing out an I.D. to verify anything concerning my personal info to the web, If it came down to that. If a sight wants me to verify my age, I just move on. Not worth the security risk offering personal info.
So it doesn't bother me at all. So far, if a site is wanting me to verify my age, the content on it is not something I wanna see anyway.
I'm not totally against it as Children could deviously get access to computers and phones against the knowledge of their parents. We all know how much harmful junk is out there over the net not suitable for children.
For me personally, I'll never comply if it requires me giving out any personal info just to verify my age. On a side note, if I were a father, Id have one strict rule for my kids. The phone you have is for emergencies and will receive and make phone calls. It will never connect to the web! I'll make sure of that. When your on your own and leave the nest, your free. Till then. There is no bending that rule!
That's just me though. I'd shut my web access down before handing out an I.D. to verify anything concerning my personal info to the web, If it came down to that. If a sight wants me to verify my age, I just move on. Not worth the security risk offering personal info.
So it doesn't bother me at all. So far, if a site is wanting me to verify my age, the content on it is not something I wanna see anyway.
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CaffeineAddict
Well-Known Member
Also there exist parental control software for most OS's, parents can easily limit what their kids do online.
Parents also can and should educate their children about online world and computers in general, if they do it well children should receive the lesion positively.
D
Deleted member 197709
Guest
parental control software... Trusting software what your kids can have access to....
That seemed to work well in the past, but the web these days.. Not so much. I do agree wholeheartedly though about educating our children.
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