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Mitt Green

Guest
Hi guys,

I would like to know your thoughts on controversial systemd, including it almost everywhere in Linux, init and will it survive or it is too obsolete.

I was using systemd in CentOS and I disliked it. I also don't like the idea of including in default Debian and probably Slackware in the future - I think a user must have a choice to use it or not.
For me, Linux is Unix, and I think that the most important Linux details (excluding the kernel) must work on other Unix systems.
I am relatively new to Linux, so maybe you professionals understand it better.
 
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ryanvade

Guest
I really prefer systemd from an end users perspective. The systemd files are much easier to understand and are easier to enable/disable. It is a bit slower depending on how it is setup. But I do agree with choice, there is a project to port over the future debian software over to an init version. I think it is time to switch. Just like Xorg....

From a developer perspective, I have found that the documentation is not as good as INITs. And the idea of having all the logs go to the same system journal drives me crazy. It does also make it easier to find things. But having to search through the whole log for something can be time consuming.
 
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Mitt Green

Guest
@ryanvade so you think, by the time systemd will be everywhere? In Devuan they just created new packages as lightweight alternatives to systemd services and planning to get rid of horrible dependencies that systemd provides. You mentioned Xorg, it's obsolete too?
 
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ryanvade

Guest
@ryanvade so ye think, by the time systemd will be everywhere? In Devuan they just created new packages as lightweight alternatives to systemd services and planning to get rid of horrible dependencies that systemd provides. Ye mentioned Xorg, it's obsolete too?
Xorg needs to be replaced NOW. But that is a separate issue.

Most of the big distros will have non-systemd variants like the Debian port I mentioned. Overall though I think systemd will become a new standard. Just look at it this way, when Debian gets systemd, Ubuntu will get systemd. Red hat and their derivatives already have it. Arch has it. The GNOME foundation works with systemd very closely which I do like. GNOME has a few systemd integrations and I think KDE will get some. For me systemd is easier and I don't see any of the speed problems.
 
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ChristiW

Guest
I saw this thread earlier today and spent a couple of hours reading tech notes, blogs and other sites. systemd is the layer right above the kernel, right?

It does have some people have quite strong feelings against it. Here is a poll and if you read down in the comments, there are some strong feelings. One believes the Debian went to hell in a handbasket since "Debian Woman" came along. (I actually thought he was talking about a specific woman and thought perhaps she has a leadership role in systemd, but as I looked it up, it's actually an organization that started in 2002) A nice comment from the chap:

This was inevitable. The rot set in when debian kicked out anyone who was opposed to the "debian-woman" initiative (one example: Ted Walther). Once that happened control of debian was in the hands of progressives alone.

from the same <ahem> gentleman:

These people are scum. They've abandoned the beliefs in freedom that once underpinned the free / opensource software community and replaced those values with standard progressive values (speech codes, staunch support for do-nothing women, support for ousting men and replacing them with women in key positions of power, etc) :rolleyes:

I will reserve my comments on that for another time. I am after all, just a "woman" who shouldn't be in the man's world of computing, let along Linux computing. Although I did look up and found the Wiki for Debian Woman and LinuxChix, so I do have him to thank, I guess... I have been battling for over 20 years in a male dominated field working along side men who have similar view as those quoted above...

Then I came upon this article and this sentence gave me pause:

Systemd is one of the most controversial projects in Linux-land right now. How controversial? So controversial that Lennart Poettering, one of systemd’s developers, even claims that horrible people have been pooling Bitcoins to hire a hitman on him.

All I can say is "WOW" and some people have more issue than the purported problems with systemd.

One thing I do agree with those who oppose systemd is that the log files are binary? Why and for what purpose? Did I read something that was incorrect?

I also thought that systemd was going to be integrated in Debian with the "Jessie" distro? Some of the comments are that it's causing all kinds of issues in production, yet isn't "Jessie" still in testing? Or is systemd in some form in Wheezy?

Can someone explain what and why this is such a big deal that people are pooling bitcoins in order to have someone killed? :eek:

From what I have read, it seems like it's replacing something that is very antiquated and in need of an upgrade/change. Have those who are strongly opposed have a better solution in mind?
 
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Mitt Green

Guest
I saw this thread earlier today and spent a couple of hours reading tech notes, blogs and other sites. systemd is the layer right above the kernel, right?

It does have some people have quite strong feelings against it. Here is a poll and if you read down in the comments, there are some strong feelings. One believes the Debian went to hell in a handbasket since "Debian Woman" came along. (I actually thought he was talking about a specific woman and thought perhaps she has a leadership role in systemd, but as I looked it up, it's actually an organization that started in 2002) A nice comment from the chap:

This was inevitable. The rot set in when debian kicked out anyone who was opposed to the "debian-woman" initiative (one example: Ted Walther). Once that happened control of debian was in the hands of progressives alone.

from the same <ahem> gentleman:

These people are scum. They've abandoned the beliefs in freedom that once underpinned the free / opensource software community and replaced those values with standard progressive values (speech codes, staunch support for do-nothing women, support for ousting men and replacing them with women in key positions of power, etc) :rolleyes:

I will reserve my comments on that for another time. I am after all, just a "woman" who shouldn't be in the man's world of computing, let along Linux computing. Although I did look up and found the Wiki for Debian Woman and LinuxChix, so I do have him to thank, I guess... I have been battling for over 20 years in a male dominated field working along side men who have similar view as those quoted above...

Then I came upon this article and this sentence gave me pause:

Systemd is one of the most controversial projects in Linux-land right now. How controversial? So controversial that Lennart Poettering, one of systemd’s developers, even claims that horrible people have been pooling Bitcoins to hire a hitman on him.

All I can say is "WOW" and some people have more issue than the purported problems with systemd.

One thing I do agree with those who oppose systemd is that the log files are binary? Why and for what purpose? Did I read something that was incorrect?

I also thought that systemd was going to be integrated in Debian with the "Jessie" distro? Some of the comments are that it's causing all kinds of issues in production, yet isn't "Jessie" still in testing? Or is systemd in some form in Wheezy?

Can someone explain what and why this is such a big deal that people are pooling bitcoins in order to have someone killed? :eek:

From what I have read, it seems like it's replacing something that is very antiquated and in need of an upgrade/change. Have those who are strongly opposed have a better solution in mind?
People in computer world are much more likely to have emm... butthurt? because writing nasty things is much easier than blaming face to face.
Since Debian's community consists of jerks and frauds on more than a half (I hope much less, of course) they are very likely to use such language and showing disrespect. Another moment is Debian is a very conservative distro and is likely to miss latest technologies, remember 2.6 kernel in Squeeze and 3.2 in Wheezy? Systemd is included by default if you use GNOME services (which are included if you use more than a window manager)(dependencies) but you still boot with init unless you install systemd-sysv package.
So other people in the community are so-called Greybeards (like Stallman who uses GNewSense which has 2.6 kernel and GNOME 2 on board. GNewSense is Debian without all proprietary stuff).
In that site you see me voting for init (named Mitto Plasma) because I will support Greybeards and traditions (if they exist). Of course, probably by the time when such things will be too obsolete, we'll need to create alternatives and switch to them. I never blame anyone because of his solutions. If Lennart wouldn't said that things he said, we never had such reactions probably.
I'm currently using Jessie booting with init but some error messages appear in init telling me that I'm missing some of its services.
Currently the project named Devuan from Veteran Unix Admin is in development so you can read their ideas on devuan.org. They want to get rid of its terrible dependencies and make lightweight alternatives to things like logind, polkit and others.
 
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ChristiW

Guest
One of the reasons I went with Debian was because of their Social Contract. It really impressed me. I have gone to the Debian forums on Debian.org and I don't think I would like to be part of that community. Here's my hypothesis on why some of the members are the way they are. They're mostly (if not all) insecure males who are just trying to emulate Linux Torvalds. Serious, they think it's cool when Linus makes comments like:

... I mean when I get really upset about something, it's when someone does something stupid. Especially from a developer standpoint. It's seldom even from a code standpoint anymore. It's like sometimes I send out these emails saying "this code really sucks, don't ever send me code again because you're too stupid to live"...

and these insecure men find that incredibly cool and try and be the same.Instead of giving constructive criticism, they denigrate and make the person feel so stupid that they are not welcome in their little club. If someone had taken the time to constructively show them why their code (or question) is so stupid that they don't deserve to live, the person might have learned something, that something might have "clicked" and seen why/where they were wrong. Instead that person probably gave up and decided, because of that community, that Linux was not for them. (It did me for many years!)

I joined this community because I haven't seen that type of attitude here. You guys (and gals) actually want me (and others) to learn Linux (I think :confused:) and it shows on how the community accepts newcomers. Not to mention the 100's of hours spent writing tutorials and articles to help new and old users alike.Those tutorials & articles are an invaluable resource here and the staff writers should take a pat on the back for all the good work they've done.

I do not have enough knowledge and I am still ignorant in the whole scope of how Linux works to make a stance on whether systemd is a good or bad thing. I am sure in time I will have an opinion, but not quite yet. I will say that comments from men that I quoted in my post up-thread hinders my ability to hear their arguments on the negative side of systemd. It shouldn't, but it does. I mean, if a person cannot take a woman in a position of leadership seriously, then I really can't take him seriously.

I have read Stallman's book "Free as in Freedom", the first edition and have downloaded the second (I guess there were some revisements?) to read in the near future. I do remember agreeing with a lot of what he said, probably not as emphatically or as radically, but it really did get me interested in Linux. Unfortunately, the comments of "RTFM" were very off putting and made me drop my want of learning the system. I asked a question and was told to "Read the man pages", without telling what a man page was, let alone how or where to find it! I had no idea that so many came out of the womb with an advanced knowledge of an OS. I do try and research before posing a question, but sometimes those searches finds me in articles that are a bit over my head and something is not clicking. When I posted my question here about partitioning, I was terrified of what the responses would be (or if there would be answers), even though I never saw any evidence to the contrary other than the members here being helpful, despite my being a woman. :p I hope down the line I can be valued contributor and give back to this community as much as been freely given to me.

Thank you for posting the YouTube, I am going to watch it as I have never seen him speak live, only read articles and his book.

I just believe that if someone is opposed to something so vehemently as they are of systemd, they should have a better solution or they are part of the problem.

Sorry if I bogarted this thread, but I think it does fit the topic, since there is so much controversy surrounding systemdt. This thread made me think, I love threads like that. ;)
 
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Darren Hale

Guest
It really wears me down to hear the negative and horrid comments of some of the Community such as comparing Lennart Poettering to Hitler.

Hi Christi yes there are some great women working in the Linux world. It's hard to believe that sexism towards women still exists. Never be afraid to ask questions we all learn at different rates and every member of the community is important.
 
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JasKinasis

Guest
On the technical side of things, I can see both sides of the argument regarding old-style init VS systemd (and other alternatives like Canonicals Upstart).

I can see the need for a replacement for init, and I can also see the downsides of systemd. There are some valid technical points raised on both sides. Personally, as long as my machine boots to the OS, I don't really care which system is in use!

The negativity and aggression in the community regarding this issue is a shame. But at the same time, it is almost inevitable. Both sides are extremely passionate about their positions on the issue. Those passions ran over, confrontations occurred and insults were exchanged.

Also remember that it is this same passion that drives the development of free software. If nobody cared that much, what state would the software be in?? Would free software even exist as it does today without people with those levels of passion?

In any community, you will get a minority of, pardon my Welsh, "A-holes", it happens everywhere. Some people have more abrasive personalities than others, that is just a fact of life. At the same time, some people are too easily offended and need to get a thicker s.k.i.n! (sorry had to spell that out to subvert the spam filter, for some reason that word is blocked!)
After all, what does it mean to be offended?

In the words of intellectual UK comic/TV presenter Stephen Fry:
“It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so f***ing what."

Now, I'm not trying to defend the systemd haters. Some of the posts that have been levelled at Lennart and the other systemd developers are repugnant and do go way over the line. But Flame-wars are as old as the internet itself. And this one was a particularly nasty one. It quickly got way out of hand.

"Inflated egos's figurative (not literal) public willy-waving in mailing lists" aside; things are at least moving on now. The systemd devs are carrying on with their work; Debian have decided to adopt systemd; and those in the Debian community who are vocally opposed to systemd have created a fork of Debian without it. Thus the circle of life in the free software world goes on.

What happens next? Only time will tell... Maybe systemd will continue to become ubiquitous and Devuan will fade into obscurity. Or perhaps the Devuan developers init will prove to be a better, cleaner system and will be re-absorbed into Debian in the future and accepted more widely. Perhaps the systemd devs work will be for naught. Or perhaps both will persist 'til time immemorial..... Who knows?! {grabs some popcorn and a brewski and sits to watch}

At the end of the day, if there is something you don't like in the free software world, you fork it and do things the way you want to. The good forks live on, the bad forks die out. It's like the free software version of evolution/natural selection. It's how the software gets better!

These kind of events always cause turbulence in the community. It is a shame it happens, especially when things get ugly and go so far. But it is almost always minorities from both sides who cause the most trouble. On the whole, most members of the various free software communities are polite, astute and benign!

All free software communities should expect other members to behave professionally, with respect towards one another. But at the same time the community should also be willing to accept that sometimes conflicts will occur and that some people will be a little more abrasive/offensive than others at times.

I don't see a problem with somebody venting a little during an online argument, like some of Linus' outbursts; but trolls should not be tolerated... Anybody who is constantly and mindlessly offensive for the sake of causing offence, they are the people who are truly toxic in communities.

As a programmer; when reviewing/looking at bad code I do sometimes think offensive things about whoever wrote the code. But when it comes to responding to the author of the code, I don't include those thoughts in my response. Instead I will mentally edit those thoughts out whilst composing my response, as I'm sure most other sane people do.

Whereas when somebody like Linus looks at bad code and gets upset; he just seems to type whatever thoughts enter his head, with no edits. That's just his thing. It's a part of his personality. He's not abrasive like that all the time - only when he gets upset. I think we should be able to accept that!

Also, sometimes you do just need to cut through the crap and get straight to the point! (as I should, instead of rambling away in these TLDR; walls of text I keep posting!)

When it comes to dealing with potentially offensive posts from abrasive characters, I always judge any technical comments in their posts on their technical merit. And any insults will simply be ignored.... Life's too short and precious to waste by dwelling on, or responding to comments from trolls. Sticks and stones and all that!

re: ChristiW's - Sexism in the community:
In this day and age I'm surprised to discover that this is still a huge problem. That said, I'm pretty certain you won't experience any problems like that here! :)
 
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Mitt Green

Guest
@JasKinasis I agree with the most points except for forking in particular Debian. There is too much work and it's hard to get rid of systemd dependency chain. The hardest thing the Veteran Unix Admins do now is releasing GNOME from this trap. But I see the passion and I see how many people that have been using Debian since the very beginning, they know what they want, I hope they'll achieve it.

As for Debian project leaders, I want them next time to listen to Greybeards to avoid badass phrases from jerks and miss many people because of philosophy. As I said, Debian is very conservative and does not tend to adopt new things.

I don't think init has to be replaced, it's well known, very stable and universal. Technical people don't really need their systems to boot up two seconds faster and thus they just don't need it. Everything was working fine, everyone knows how it works, why do we need to change something? Just no need and that's all!

Lennart said about Slackware users, 'they prefer 1990's stuff'. We all do it here. Unix was born 45 years ago and we still on this way. If ye want to change something, come up and make yer own non-Unix system!

Unix is more than a system, it's also a philosophy.

(Maybe Lennart was brought by *BSD community to increase Berkeley's market share?)
 
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ChristiW

Guest
@JasKinasis - Awesome post, eloquently put and I thoroughly enjoyed reading it.

@Mitt Green - I hope Devuan succeeds in developing the system they want. That is what Open Source is all about, right? Taking the kernel and making a system that you want/need to get the job (whether it be professional or hobby) done. I will try it out, when the time comes and if it's for me, I'll use it.

As a database/software developer, I have had my ideas and thoughts pushed aside and went with the majority (more or less because I had to otherwise the only other option was to quite my job and I wasn't going to do that) and in the end, sometimes I was proven wrong, and I accepted it and moved on.

As far as sexism, yes it exists- I have been a victim of it, from promotion to even being hired. Vocally and non-vocally. I just shrug it off and move about my day. I think the new generation of programmers will see that it's not such an issue as it was in my earlier days (20+ years ago). Women in math, science and technology is generally accepted anymore, even if we're still in the minority. We just have to prove ourselves more than our male counterparts.

@Darren Hale - The comparing Lennart to Hitler really gets under my skin. Comparing anyone to Hitler is a sign of disrespect to those who were victims of the holocaust, and those who do compare anyone to Hitler... well... I am just to much of a lady to say what I really feel. ;)
 
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optimum

Guest
A nice comment from the chap:

[etc]

from the same <ahem> gentleman:

[etc]
This person is best ignored. There is only one mailing list, blog and forum troll who writes that kind of thing and he's well known and goes under several pseudonyms. The theme is always the same: anti-systemd, chauvinistic posting (that's putting it mildly) and ranting and insulting anyone who disagrees with his position. What you read there is the tip of the iceberg compared to some of what he has posted elsewhere.
 
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ChristiW

Guest
This person is best ignored. There is only one mailing list, blog and forum troll who writes that kind of thing and he's well known and goes under several pseudonyms. The theme is always the same: anti-systemd, chauvinistic posting (that's putting it mildly) and ranting and insulting anyone who disagrees with his position. What you read there is the tip of the iceberg compared to some of what he has posted elsewhere.
Oh I don't know about ignoring him, but I will not take what he says to heart. I just roll my eyes and pity him that he has such views. I wouldn't know about Debian Woman if I had just stopped after reading the first few words of his post. Keep your enemy close and all that. I honestly did think he was speaking of a specific woman, and that she was the one who made the decision to use systemd; not that it was an organization that started over a decade ago. That he harbored anger about her decision.

My first taste in sexism was when I was 14, a freshman in high school. My algebra teacher told me, when I stayed after class to ask a question, because you never asked questions in class, that I didn't need to worry about understanding the concept. I was "pretty" and that all I needed to be worried about was marrying well, popping out a few kids and sit in the corner, smile and support my husband in all his endeavors. That was a crushing, confusing blow to my self esteem. I barely got by in math. Twenty some years later I decided to have a go at math and it turns out I have quite an aptitude for it.

It's why I support groups that do help and encourage young ladies to explore math, science and technology. Just think of where I would be today had Mr.Math had taken the time to go over and explain the concept that I was stuck on all those years ago. I am still pondering whether or not to join Debian woman as sometimes women's groups are hardly about encouraging young women, just a place for them to be anti-male. I am far from being anti-male, I just think women should have every opportunity that men have, including the same pay. To be honest, I would rather work with a team of men than I would a team of women as a man would not talk to other teammates about how big my butt looked in my new dress if he disagreed with my ideas on how a piece of code should work. :p

As far as sytemd, I am still unsure of how I feel about it. It seems that all systems need to be dependent on an init system in some way, right? I think it's just a matter of which should be the default and not to exclude any other init system, which I think is what Debian is going to be doing.

Correct me if I am wrong as I am still not well versed on the init system, but is the issue that systemd is large and that the user-space programs are going to use and be dependent on systemd and not using any other init system, therefore for not giving the user the choice any other init system? (I read Gnome a lot in the arguments- that Gnome is dependent on systemd and does not work on any other init system.)
 
A

atanere

Guest
I am grateful to all the men and women who program the kernel, and all the many apps and desktop environments and distros that I enjoy. I respectfully disagree with the idea that, "if it ain't broke (init), don't fix it."

Inventors, engineers, programmers, and others, are driven to move forward... "to build a better mousetrap." While I'm sure it must be great to dream up something new and innovative, I think that much more work is done in making improvements to existing technologies, even at times reinventing the wheel. Every new Linux distro is reinventing the wheel. Every new desktop environment is also. Every new email client, or browser. I don't see the difference from this idea with systemd. Nothing is immune to change.

I bought a new mousetrap a few months ago. Not the old steel spring type that would snap down hard on my fingers sometimes, although it still performed its job admirably. It was a new type, all plastic, that opens like a clothes pin (and can't easily trap my fingers). I like it, and it also works well.

Enough developers are jumping in with systemd that I think it will work fine too. And if it doesn't, they will reinvent the wheel once again.

Cheers!
 
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Darren Hale

Guest
I'm waiting to see how systemd works out and personally have an open mind on it. Yes change can sometimes be necessary if it is an improvement, unfortunately this isn't always the case.
 


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