Why Do Beginners Have So Much Trouble With Linux Mint.

[bob466]

This is something I can't understand...you download the ISO...verify it...burn it to a Flash Drive or drag it into Ventoy...then install it...how hard is that. ?

Mint isn't hard to use...it's easy to customise...doesn't break and is very stable...so why do beginners have so many problems...after all isn't it a "beginners" Distro...as some claim.

I know someone who about 8 mths ago had a new Tower built...had never used Linux before. I created an image of my System...Mint Cinnamon 22.1 and put it on their new SSD and spent a whole day showing them the basics of how to use Mint.

I showed them the Update Manager...how to copy and paste a few commands into the Terminal especially the Trim command. I said to keep your System upto date and run the Trim command once a week...I gave them a list of instructions and said...if you have any questions or want to change something...ask first...what could possibly go wrong.

Last week I asked how the computer was and they said we have a problem...Firefox is missing...it happened after the updates were installed...and now the Menu is different too.

When they mentioned the Menu...I knew exactly what they did...they upgraded from Cinnamon 22.1 to 22.3 something I never told them to do...now they have problems.
Didn't you think to ask if this was a good idea...didn't you see the warning...Upgrading may cause issues...they claim the notice to upgrade came up on the Panel...which I know didn't.
To fix this...because you can't go back...I'll have to re-image the Drive with Cinnamon 22.1. At the end of the day...problems with Linux Mint are caused by Hardware...sometimes a bad ISO and beginners...that's it.

 

[f33dm3bits]

I think it may be more of a beginner problem when it comes to the upgrades because 90% of the time going from one minor version to the next shouldn't be a problem. Over the years I've seen many people do minor version upgrades without issues on different distributions and I've also seen many people do major upgrades on different distributions and also not have any issues. I've done both myself and never ran into problems, so can't say for sure but most normal computer users before they start using Linux never installed or updated an os themselves because Windows was installed on the device they bought and the updating was done automatically.

Linux Mint - Community

Linux Mint - Community

community.linuxmint.com

 

[wizardfromoz]

G'day Bob.

I agree for the most part with what you have said above.

As for the beginners coming here with problems, I think you are oversimplifying things a little.

Our Linux Mint subforum at time of writing is in to page 38, but page 38 is only half full. That's a maximum of 750 threads at 20 a page, going back to 2014,

That, in turn, equates to 62.5 threads a year. Maybe double that or more, for threads placed elsewhere, still only works out to one to two per week.

Some of those threads are not support threads but fan threads.

Besides this fine place, questions may be placed at linuxquestions.org , Reddit, Bleeping Computer, and a few others.

BUT (and you know what they say about Wizard's butt, it is usually travelling not too far behind him)

There are millions of Mint users around the world, so the problems registered at Forums are just a drop in the bucket, less than one fraction of one fraction of a per cent of the users... who encounter problems.

I could go on, but I think the readers will get the picture.

This place is both like a Help Desk, and a Teaching hospital.

In "real life", if you have a health problem, you may see your family doctor, or if serious, you present at a hospital.

For those users of Mint with problems, they present here, or at one of the other forums.

Cheers and

Avagudweegend

Wiz

 

[Condobloke]

the notice to upgrade came up on the Panel.

Notice of Upgrade being available does come up on the panel, albeit very briefly, and sometimes only the once.
It is a pop up from system reports, which is found under System Information. It will only appear in the sys tray if the system has a problem or if there is an upgrade available.

Firefox is missing.

....which could have been caused by any number of 'newbie' actions

upgrades do not necessarily cause problems.....Users do

 

[PuppyHome]

but most normal computer users before they start using Linux never installed or updated an os themselves because Windows was installed on the device they bought and the updating was done automatically.

Good point. This was the reason I messed up when starting with Linux. Once I figured that out I never had troubles again. Apart from an occasional corrupt ISO.

I think most new users didn't get the "unlearning Windows habits" memo.
Follow instructions, listen to forum members when asking for advice that's all there is to it.

 

[Condobloke]

If a potential Linux user, is an ordinary/never look under the hood/ when the system says click here they do that/ ....and are generally "looked after" by the windows system....in other words they are coddled almost to death !...... then they can be in for a world of hurt when they encounter Linux.
"I've got to what !!??"...said a reddit newcomer to Linux, to me......when I told him to download an iso and 'burn' it to a usb stick using balena or if he was a little more sure of his ground he could drag and drop a handful of distros to Ventoy so he could distro hop a bit and figure out he wanted to run... but read the instructions for "how to" set up a ventoy usb first.

You would have sworn I had given him instructions on how to summon up the devil incarnate !

In the poor guys defence, he was so 'attached' to the 'windows life' , he knew nothing else., had no idea, and was possibly on the way to a nervous melt down.

Everybody is different. EVERYBODY.
We cannot generalise and make simple rules and expect them to fit all the Linux newcomers. One size does NOT fit all. This is NOT windows.

(and with any sort of luck it never will be !)

 

[garyn]

I'm using Linux a pretty long time and Mint since Maya in 2012. At first (really for the most part today) I used it as a GUI only, not knowing or caring what was "under the hood". I performed updates, installed / used what I needed and pretty much left Mint to do what it does.

Can Mint make you go sideways and get screwed up? Yes but mostly with help from the "user nut" in front of the screen.

Gone are the Linux days when a successful install was a low percentage if you did not already use Linux, Gone are the crashed file systems if you experienced a power failure, gone is the heavy nearly complete reliance on the terminal and gone are the application installs that break Linux.

So if a new user has a clone of the drive that was a successful install other than an outright drive failure I daresay I could plop Sally Secretary down if front of a configured Linux machine and with no more than an operator's training session she'd never have a problem.

 

[osprey]

It's a worthy discussion to have on beginners issues since many of them read this forum.

A few observations come to mind on reading post #1.

In relation to trimming the drive, the systemd unit fstrim takes care of that function without the need for user intervention. The fstrim timer file shows that by default, trim is conducted weekly:

[~]$ systemctl cat fstrim.timer
# /usr/lib/systemd/system/fstrim.timer
[Unit]
Description=Discard unused filesystem blocks once a week
Documentation=man:fstrim
ConditionVirtualization=!container
ConditionPathExists=!/etc/initrd-release

[Timer]
OnCalendar=weekly <------------------------When file is run
AccuracySec=1h
Persistent=true
RandomizedDelaySec=100min

[Install]
WantedBy=timers.target

The user doesn't enable or disable fstrim.service because it's a static unit file that is activated by the timer file. It's transparent to the user. If by chance a user wishes to alter the frequency of trimming, they can create a systemd override file.

In relation to fixing problems in a linux distro by re-installing the whole operating system, it's usually unnecessary because linux is well supplied with the tools to repair problems. Whilst re-installing may be more economical in time for a user, it's not so economical so far as learning linux goes. In any case, the impulse to re-install can be seen largely as a derivative from the common practice of windows users in the past who were actually following official advice from MS to do that. The latest windows are more resilient evidently, but the advice persists on occasion still.

 

[ron.alan]

If a potential Linux user, is an ordinary/never look under the hood/ when the system says click here they do that/ ....and are generally "looked after" by the windows system....in other words they are coddled almost to death !

↑ This right here. ↑

You buy a computer today with Windows already installed, plug it in and go. Nobody knows how to do anything anymore.

 

[bob466]

I wasn't talking about this Forum...I was saying that someone was given an image of my system that had everything on it...minus my personal things and didn't have to do anything except ask it they had a question. All they had to do was Login and use it...easy.

Had I did a clean install and said go for it...I could understand but that wasn't the case. If you want to learn to drive..you take lessons not jump behind the wheel do go for it.

If shown how to use Mint by people who use it...not youtube...then problems are less likely to occur. If a beginner wants to try something that they're not sure about...create an image or at least a Timeshift snapshot first.

A created image is an exact copy of my SSDs drive space with all settings...Browsers etc. My Drive was optimised...Trim was set to run daily but as I said...run Trim manually once a week and explained why.
Upgrading is a risk...do you feel lucky...Mint gives you a warning...

Reminds me of Clint Eastwood...you ya feel lucky..well do ya punk.

Forums are here to help beginners who have never used Linux before and have no where else to turn...we've all been there.

 

[kc1di]

Well I don't know that mint is the problem. I think one of the biggest problem newbies have to get over is the sheer volume of choices they have in Linux. Other OS's do not give those choices. And it bewilders them for a bit. Those that stick with it find the help they need with forums like this one. (Mint has a very good forum also.) and get their questions answered most of the time. Some of the problems they face are getting use to a new file system, new way of doing things, ETC. But all in all There is more learning tools online now then when I started many year ago. and the Systems have improved 100 fold in that time. They are easier than ever. So I try to encourage them to learn and take it slow. And welcome them to our forum.

 

[MikeWalsh]

I guess the major point here is that the vast majority of people ARE simply "users".....they're NOT enthusiasts, and most are NOT knowledgeable about software except insofar as interacting with it at the GUI level.

Almost every Linux user I've come across seems to have a greater than usual degree of knowledge.....about their system, their hardware, about the nuts'n'bolts of what makes a computer system 'tick'. In other words, they're enthusiasts. Many - like myself - have had more than a passing interest in all this stuff since the early days of the "home computer revolution". I've always been interested in 'tech'; what makes things work - and how - and especially why things don't always do what they're supposed to do..!

For me, the switch to Linux involved no more than a very gentle learning curve; remember, even just 12 years ago Linux GUI stuff wasn't as polished as it is now.....though it was still miles better than critics would have you believe.

So, yeah; I CAN relate to where some folks are coming from when they post about having "problems" with one of the easiest-to-use distros available. The entire process of change is not just alien, but also very stressful to those that simply don't - in some cases, literally CAN'T - comprehend what's going on.

Those of us with any degree of experience here just need to be a bit more understanding, I guess. I always find it helps to think back to one's own "noob" days, and to ask yourself, truthfully.......was I so different?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the distinct impression that we were supposed to be helping people here....not criticizing them.


Mike.

 

[KGIII]

For a variety of reasons, many people have never installed an operating system in their lives. They only know how to use Windows, some knowing enough to just get by, and some who may have a bit more knowledge.

Let's change it to this:

Why do so many people find it hard to learn how to play a guitar?

For some of us, all of those things are valid. We're very proficient with a guitar.

So, how come you can't pick up the guitar and start playing it immediately? There are directions online, a ton of video tutorials, and music notation available for almost every song you can think of.

That might be a better analogy than we might think. It's said that 90% of the people who take piano lessons quit within a year.

 

[AlphaObeisance]

Idiocracy.

Not that they are idiots; but most people are entirely incapable of critical thinking and basic troubleshooting capabilities. Most of the general public literally aren't even capable of thinking "I should ask google what this is", or act like making inquiries to google is "too much work".

I was quite optimistic when coming to Linux as no issue I ever encountered was beyond my own inherent curiosity and ability to seek out solutions. I'd never been the "Linux is too hard" type of person, but rather the "I'm trying something new, therefore I must commit to learning something new kind of person.

I've since come to realize that the vast majority of humanity is incapable of putting forth any effort that exceeds the limitations of their automation.

We live in world of NPCs dependant on their technological overlords.

I swore years ago when I got into Arch Linux that I would never be like the typical "Arch User". And while that stands true in many aspects still today; at the end of the day the one thing I share with the rest of them is the inherent "FML" moment every time someone does something stupid, or asks a stupid question.

Thankfully I'm still capable of throwing on a smile and doing my best to help, because at heart I know it's just innocent ignorance.

But I no longer detest the likes of the Arch Linux "elites" for having little to no regard for helping others who aren't first willing to help themselves. It's exhausting and mind numbingly redundant.

 

[KGIII]

@AlphaObeisance

There's a link in my signature about some posting guidelines. When you get a free minute, it'd be great if you looked at it.

 

[AlphaObeisance]

@AlphaObeisance

There's a link in my signature about some posting guidelines. When you get a free minute, it'd be great if you looked at it.

I've been here since 2022 KGIII, I'm acquainted. Maybe I'm just moody today idk.

But I can hardly tell the difference between my post and the complaints of the OP aside of my brute personality. I merely stated my observations regarding the general populace; of which I'm sure most any within our particular circles could, at the very least, understand where I'm coming from.

I have a tendency to say the "quiet part" out lout where most would likely bite their tongues to pander to social "etiquette" despite the generally underlining unanimous understanding that my point remains largely valid albeit a bitter bite to swallow.

Your contest has been noted; I'll go take a nap so I can return riding on my rainbow of unicorn farts and pixie dust . If my post was truly that off the mark or "offensive", by all means feel free to delete it. I'd not take offense to the action and would likely giggle it off.

Point stands. People struggle with Mint because the community at large is generally unwilling to put forth any effort of their own to resolve their issues.

A quick glance at my post history will largely reflect a polite, helpful nature. Equally so, there's a track record where I typically don't hold back on posts like this where I'm provided a legitimate avenue to complain about something we all encounter and experience at one time or another.

That said. My neck acknowledges your boots heel.

 

[KGIII]

Maybe I'm just moody today idk.

It happens. They aren't rules, they're just guidelines. Calling them names isn't going to endear them to our cause.

But I can hardly tell the difference between my post and the complaints of the OP aside of my brute personality.

You're definitely not wrong. LOL I leave it up to the Wizard from Australia to deal with him.

But, yeah, your post was really negative and would be viewed as rude from a newbie -- especially a newbie who was struggling to get up to speed and reaching out to us for help.

That said, I've been known to have a pissy day or two.

People who are tech-adjacent know about Linux and have some beliefs about Linux users. They view us as unwilling to help, as being rude, as being gatekeepers, and stuff like that. I'd like to think we can change that. I'd like to hope that we've moved beyond telling someone to "RTFM!" instead of offering them help directly.

I hope your day improves. The guidelines are, I think, a great way to conduct ourselves online. We can all improve, especially me.

 

[MikeWalsh]

@AlphaObeisance :-

Following a wee cardiac incident some years back, on occasion I find myself just having a really sh*tty, 'negative' day. If I had the sense I was born with, I'd refrain from posting until my disposition had improved.....but of course, it doesn't always work out as intended.

Of course, it could just be part of the natural 'progression' of the self that stems from being the 'wrong' side of 60....and getting so that you no longer give a damn about HOW others see you. Which - if my personal observations are owt to go by - affects every human alive, to a greater or lesser degree.

You're not alone, my son. We all have days like that. Some of us just seem to handle them more tactfully than others...

(sigh...)


Mike.

 

[AlphaObeisance]

@MikeWalsh & @KGIII

I return on my trusty steed of uni-horn and the pixie dust doth flutter on this fine beautiful sunny day post rest of me eyeballs only to have returned to the pleasant reminder of why I originally fell in love with this forum.

yeah, your post was really negative and would be viewed as rude from a newbie -- especially a newbie who was struggling to get up to speed and reaching out to us for help.

That said, I've been known to have a pissy day or two.

Would it be of any surprise if I told you that this literally sums up my entire personality and how the general public tends to digest my presence? baha! Any who actually know me know I'd drop anything I was doing to help others; but I tend to conduct myself in an eh; socially unfavorable way that is generally too blunt or lumbering for socializing. I've heard that about Scotch, an "acquired taste" I suppose.

@AlphaObeisance :-

If I had the sense I was born with, I'd refrain from posting until my disposition had improved.....

On that note, ask anyone around and they'd probably tell you I wasn't born with munch sense, or at the very least that I insist on learning the hard way.

That said, I'm only 36 but I feel this...

Of course, it could just be part of the natural 'progression' of the self that stems from being the 'wrong' side of 60....and getting so that you no longer give a damn about HOW others see you. Which - if my personal observations are owt to go by - affects every human alive, to a greater or lesser degree.

in my bones. Seems no matter how eager I was prior in life, to help others. The longer that annoyingly persistent little clock of life keeps ticking, the more I find myself less concerned about social acceptance and more about just helping out however I can; so long as I can do so as myself and not some social facade . I prefer to remain authentically myself regardless of environment, though this doesn't always garner me friends or support. But that's a rant for another time no doubt. I also seem to be inherently grouchy around the clock and no amount of naps seem to help baha!

viewed as rude from a newbie -- especially a newbie who was struggling to get up to speed and reaching out to us for help.

On that note I'll leave ya'll with this.

Let not my complaints in this thread lead you to believe newbies are somehow unwelcome here. My complaints are personal and directed more towards those who aren't even willing to make it as far as you have (reading a thread on linux.org). That in an of itself is a sign that you're resourceful and willing enough to seek out answers and guidance where the vast majority of humanity would not.

Anywho, I'm getting side tracked and my social meter is dwindling. Thanks boys for giving me that gentle reminder; it was a needed laugh.

Cheers

 

[bob466]

Again I wasn't talking about this Forum...not all Forums are helpful and friendly to beginners either...I'm sure some of us can relate to that.

It's human nature...when they're told don't play around with the system as it might cause problems...they do...just like a wet paint sign saying don't touch...they can't help themselves.

That's why I created an image of their system because I knew it was just a matter of time before they said...I wonder what happens if I do this.