Encrypted DNS?
What's With Cloudflare?
- Thread starter ron.alan
- Start date
Brickwizard
Well-Known Member
Cloud flair is a premier content delivery networks (CDNs), one of about 15 i know of, You have to pay for the service offered which in some cases is very expensive, It is therefore understandable that @Rob has chosen cloud flair , it has a good reputation and its offers a free basic system as well as some very expensive ones,
As this site is paid for by adds and donations, running cost need to be kept to a minimum to give free access to all, the alternative would be a paid membership [most users would not accept this as they see the internet as a free information service]
that's the background, now the nitty-gritty,
over the last few years Linux org has become the leading information and help forum for Linux users new and old,our membership has shot up and our post are regularly in the top 3 when a Linux question is asked, with this popularity, among the search engines makes us noticed by by those who go out of their way to disrupt successful sites, it is also picked up by the screen scraping bots, it is the action of these two entities that cause the site to crash, the only way to mitigate some of these actions is a second step authentication, so you need to ask yourself
Do we want to pay an annual subscription [subscription will probably kill of much of the membership]
Do we want the site crashing more often [this again would cause more members to leave]
@Rob has set the Cloud flair security to be as functionable as possible in the current climate
If it takes an extra step/couple of seconds to sign in, so be it, only you can decide if this puts you off using the site and if you wish to stay or not,
Me, I am an old man, for me an extra couple of seconds signing in is neither here nor there, I do get annoyed when it crashes, but it is nowhere as bad as it was a couple of years ago,
if you have time some of the past history of this problem is journaled here
As this site is paid for by adds and donations, running cost need to be kept to a minimum to give free access to all, the alternative would be a paid membership [most users would not accept this as they see the internet as a free information service]
that's the background, now the nitty-gritty,
over the last few years Linux org has become the leading information and help forum for Linux users new and old,our membership has shot up and our post are regularly in the top 3 when a Linux question is asked, with this popularity, among the search engines makes us noticed by by those who go out of their way to disrupt successful sites, it is also picked up by the screen scraping bots, it is the action of these two entities that cause the site to crash, the only way to mitigate some of these actions is a second step authentication, so you need to ask yourself
Do we want to pay an annual subscription [subscription will probably kill of much of the membership]
Do we want the site crashing more often [this again would cause more members to leave]
@Rob has set the Cloud flair security to be as functionable as possible in the current climate
If it takes an extra step/couple of seconds to sign in, so be it, only you can decide if this puts you off using the site and if you wish to stay or not,
Me, I am an old man, for me an extra couple of seconds signing in is neither here nor there, I do get annoyed when it crashes, but it is nowhere as bad as it was a couple of years ago,
if you have time some of the past history of this problem is journaled here
That is very, very nicely put, Brian.
Chris
Chris
Brickwizard
Well-Known Member
Thank you, Chris
I tried to keep it as short as i could and as succinct as possible, I want newbies as well as old members to try and understand the basics of your problems without patronising anyone, but this has become the magic roundabout, and comes round whenever we suffer even minor drop-outs, thankfully it is nowhere near as bad as 3 years ago
I tried to keep it as short as i could and as succinct as possible, I want newbies as well as old members to try and understand the basics of your problems without patronising anyone, but this has become the magic roundabout, and comes round whenever we suffer even minor drop-outs, thankfully it is nowhere near as bad as 3 years ago
I don't mind the check box when I first open the linux.org sign-in page. I -do- mind having to wait for the check box to appear, even though it's only a second or two. I mind even more that, when I open three pages in tabs, one of which is the linux.org sign-in page, the waiting for the check box to appear doesn't start until I open that tab.
And no, I don't use 2FA. My user name and password identifiy me. That's enough.
And no, I don't use 2FA. My user name and password identifiy me. That's enough.
I can live with the check box but it is annoying. And don't get me started on the farse that is 2FA. making it tougher for the user is not security.
Fair enough.
Respectfully, now that I'm older I've learned not to let delays bother me (thank you, Dr. Wayne Dyer). But I certainly understand where you are coming from.
Having said that, I did take steps to minimize the wasted time.
Mm...
Speaking from experience as "staff" on two other websites, I agree that the CloudFlare 'turnstile' IS seen as annoying by many. But I have to concur with both @Mike-BTU and @Brickwizard ; what would you rather have?
Notwithstanding the ongoing shenanigans vis-a-vis some of the smaller, more "niche" browsers not being 'recognised' by CloudFlare - yup; I'm talking about Pale Moon here - I know which I'd rather put up with.
@Mike-BTU :- I've used CloudFlare's DNS service myself for almost 4 years at this point. Switching back & forth from CF to my own ISP several times during the first 6 months or so, I know which seems a darned sight more 'stable'. Sure; sometimes, the delay IS slightly longer.....but it always connects.
It's a fact; as you age, things that used to annoy the hell out of you when younger no longer seem to matter as much any more... Since your general pace of life slows down, a few seconds is no longer the "elephant in the room" it once was.
AND - so it seems - the newest generation of scraper bots are now being endowed with the ability to search the web on their own, without being "pointed" at specific URLs. Plus, apparently, they can now generate their own UA strings whenever it's deemed appropriate! Worrying, isn't it?
BleepingComputer began using CloudFlare about 3 years ago. And although our Puppy Admin, rockedge, has resisted so far, doggedly coming up with all sorts of ways to combat the bots that even we are getting hammered by these days, I know he's considering more "draconian" measures as a last resort. We'll probably be moving to CloudFlare ourselves before too much longer.
I know which of the above two scenarios is more appealing as far as I'm concerned. Let's face it; are you guys' lives SO busy that even a few seconds delay makes the whole experience intolerable?
As our newest Admin ( @KGIII ) has said recently; "it is what it is". It's annoying, but you very soon adapt & learn to live with it.
(shrug...)
Mike.
Speaking from experience as "staff" on two other websites, I agree that the CloudFlare 'turnstile' IS seen as annoying by many. But I have to concur with both @Mike-BTU and @Brickwizard ; what would you rather have?
- A website that is overrun with bots, scrapers and what-have-you, and is all but unusable?
- Or the occasional "delay" of a few seconds.....along with the ability to continue to use this marvellous site of ours as intended?
Notwithstanding the ongoing shenanigans vis-a-vis some of the smaller, more "niche" browsers not being 'recognised' by CloudFlare - yup; I'm talking about Pale Moon here - I know which I'd rather put up with.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
@Mike-BTU :- I've used CloudFlare's DNS service myself for almost 4 years at this point. Switching back & forth from CF to my own ISP several times during the first 6 months or so, I know which seems a darned sight more 'stable'. Sure; sometimes, the delay IS slightly longer.....but it always connects.
It's a fact; as you age, things that used to annoy the hell out of you when younger no longer seem to matter as much any more... Since your general pace of life slows down, a few seconds is no longer the "elephant in the room" it once was.
Come on, guys, ya gotta move with the times. Username & password simply is NOT "enough" any more.....certainly not since the early days of the pandemic, when AI really started to take-off in earnest (it's primarily the main cause for the vast majority of slowdowns these days, since AI scraper 'bots' just rape the interweb indiscriminately, without care for the consequences). Remember; "anything man can invent, man can circumvent"; you have to give the bad guys credit for being at least as intelligent & inventive as the rest of us....if not often MORE so.
AND - so it seems - the newest generation of scraper bots are now being endowed with the ability to search the web on their own, without being "pointed" at specific URLs. Plus, apparently, they can now generate their own UA strings whenever it's deemed appropriate! Worrying, isn't it?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
BleepingComputer began using CloudFlare about 3 years ago. And although our Puppy Admin, rockedge, has resisted so far, doggedly coming up with all sorts of ways to combat the bots that even we are getting hammered by these days, I know he's considering more "draconian" measures as a last resort. We'll probably be moving to CloudFlare ourselves before too much longer.
I know which of the above two scenarios is more appealing as far as I'm concerned. Let's face it; are you guys' lives SO busy that even a few seconds delay makes the whole experience intolerable?
As our newest Admin ( @KGIII ) has said recently; "it is what it is". It's annoying, but you very soon adapt & learn to live with it.
(shrug...)
Mike.
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@bob466 :-
Bob, this suggestion has quite possibly been made before; if it has, I apologise, but.......what happens if you temporarily move your current Vivaldi 'profile' to a secure location, and allow the browser to start afresh with a new one?
Does the problem still persist? I ask, because browser profiles frequently harbour various cookies'n'stuff that simply WILL not be moved by the usual mechanisms.....and which over time, become so deeply embedded that you simply don't have a clue where they are OR what's going on. But they're there, and they create all kinds of frustrations.....
Mike.
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@bob466 :-
Bob, this suggestion has quite possibly been made before; if it has, I apologise, but.......what happens if you temporarily move your current Vivaldi 'profile' to a secure location, and allow the browser to start afresh with a new one?
Does the problem still persist? I ask, because browser profiles frequently harbour various cookies'n'stuff that simply WILL not be moved by the usual mechanisms.....and which over time, become so deeply embedded that you simply don't have a clue where they are OR what's going on. But they're there, and they create all kinds of frustrations.....
Mike.
I've been using Vivaldi for a short time and had no trouble till last week...I created an account but not a profile didn't think I needed one.
When you sugested moving my profile...I created one thinking what have I got to loose. So now with one...I went strait to Linux.org...no cloudfail...logged in and can now post and sign out...so only time will tell...fingers crossed.
What a difference a day makes...If I use Vivaldi for this site...I can't post or Logout and images won't enlarge if clicked...now have to use Brave after cloudfail lets me in that is.
I'm using Vivalidi for almost year now using the same profile and I'm not experiencing any of the issues you are describing, just saying. I only get that I have to verify as a human if I haven't been active for a while, which doesn't bother me because spammers causing spam topics and 404s are the real annoyance.Those who are not having problems can say what they like but I still can't logout or post when using Vivaldi...when I click Logout it takes me to Account Details every time.
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@bob466 :-
Um...heh. Okay....
I've got a feeling we're talking about different "profiles" here! What I call the browser profile is it's configuration settings; you appear to be referring to something else?
Whatever, if it appears to have "fixed" your issue then just go with it for now. Keep us informed as to the ongoing 'outcome', please. I'd be curious to know if the issue remains solved...
Mike.
Um...heh. Okay....
I've got a feeling we're talking about different "profiles" here! What I call the browser profile is it's configuration settings; you appear to be referring to something else?
Whatever, if it appears to have "fixed" your issue then just go with it for now. Keep us informed as to the ongoing 'outcome', please. I'd be curious to know if the issue remains solved...
Mike.
Estimates are that 80% of the traffic your site sees will be bots of one type or another. (Not all bots are malicious.)
We've had CF defenses up before and they were eventually disabled. I would not be surprised to see them disabled again.
I've covered the benefits and reasons already, so I'll avoid repeating them here.
We've had CF defenses up before and they were eventually disabled. I would not be surprised to see them disabled again.
I've covered the benefits and reasons already, so I'll avoid repeating them here.
It is enough to verify that the user is the one who registered an account. Verifying that said user is not a bot is a different matter. If the server can realistically "Verify that you are human" by displaying a check box and having you click it, there is no reason it cannot do so by displaying the check box in 2.74 milliseconds every bit as well as in 2.74 seconds (I just timed it). There's no reason it should wait until the user switches to the tab displaying such check box before starting the 2.74 second (or even 2.74 millisecond) time waste.
One might go so far as to say that the time I spend online is already wasted. Nonetheless, if I open a group of tabs to log in to
- forum.tinycorelinux.net
- linux.org/forums
- linuxquestions.org/questions
<Longish questionably relevant rant deleted before posting. Everyone thank me.>
actually I think your delay is your fault. ok now I got your attention. what I mean is that there are setting in some browsers that tell it to not load a tab unless you are on it. This is often the default setting. You should check your browser settings for tabs and see what they are set for when it comes to loading. It may be the cause of your delay issue.
I do not like the cloudflare thing. I find it annoying and on top of it I do not like the company in general so that affects it too. However we are in a place where we get to choose between the lesser of 2 evils.
Since all my other tabs load in the background, I want to say, "Nah, I thought of that but that's one of the many things I check before using a new browser", but I can't immediately even -find- that setting in either firefox or librewolf to verify it (and I don't have time to sift through all the settings to find it right now).
Going off line for a bit before the hardware store closes.
WARNING: This turned into a novella. Much of it is tongue-in-cheek.
...
I'm not sure what your experiences are, but mine have been such that less than three seconds (and a mouse click) isn't all that onerous. It doesn't bother me in the slightest.
Also, it takes longer because it is examining your browser, network, reported operating system, and stuff like that.
As for a simpler CAPTCHA, while a bit more expensive, there are bots that are smart enough to resolve them well enough.
There are free solutions but the paid CAPTCHA solvers seem to be doing brisk business. They can even solve complex forms of CAPTCHA.
There are also bots that can now register accounts, verify the account, and then autopost to the site, including doing things like editing their profile to include spam and sending private messages.
If three seconds is 'getting old', I'm not sure what to tell you. I mean, I could make suggestions but that's not likely to help.
As it stands, the AVERAGE daily downtime is 6m 57s. We'll assume that it's 3 seconds per visit (not per page, as it remembers you for a while)...
That's 420 seconds per day of downtime on average, without the CloudFlare interruption.
You'd have to visit roughly 70 times to equal that amount of downtime.
Using quick math, with this CF protection up, you have more access to the site than you have with CF turned off.
(You're not visiting 140 times per day.)
Granted, there's still a small outage here and there AND there are timing issues as that's throughout a full 24-hour period, but it's 'close enough for demonstration purposes'. And, the majority of the outages take place when the forum is busiest, which coincides with when you're usually online.
You're welcome!
...
I'm not sure what your experiences are, but mine have been such that less than three seconds (and a mouse click) isn't all that onerous. It doesn't bother me in the slightest.
Also, it takes longer because it is examining your browser, network, reported operating system, and stuff like that.
As for a simpler CAPTCHA, while a bit more expensive, there are bots that are smart enough to resolve them well enough.
There are free solutions but the paid CAPTCHA solvers seem to be doing brisk business. They can even solve complex forms of CAPTCHA.
There are also bots that can now register accounts, verify the account, and then autopost to the site, including doing things like editing their profile to include spam and sending private messages.
If three seconds is 'getting old', I'm not sure what to tell you. I mean, I could make suggestions but that's not likely to help.
As it stands, the AVERAGE daily downtime is 6m 57s. We'll assume that it's 3 seconds per visit (not per page, as it remembers you for a while)...
That's 420 seconds per day of downtime on average, without the CloudFlare interruption.
You'd have to visit roughly 70 times to equal that amount of downtime.
Using quick math, with this CF protection up, you have more access to the site than you have with CF turned off.
(You're not visiting 140 times per day.)
Granted, there's still a small outage here and there AND there are timing issues as that's throughout a full 24-hour period, but it's 'close enough for demonstration purposes'. And, the majority of the outages take place when the forum is busiest, which coincides with when you're usually online.
You're welcome!
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