This is not good for Linux, below the OS Security from Intel

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KGIII

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I did the searching to find out and you were NOT mistaken--

I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken!

Anyhow, even if the EU slaps MSFT's hand, it probably won't matter much.

If you make $100 million dollars from bad behavior and the fine is $25 million dollars, you might just as well commit the crime.
 


Fanboi

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I just have a problem with it when a company oversteps and breaks the trust.
Yep, I hate it. Sadly, it always happens. Even with independent developers. Remember Whatsapp was designed "for the greater good" to give us privacy. FB sorry "Meta", bought it. Those devs never intended to sell out. IIRC, they rejected several offers. But when someones hits you with a $2billion USD*, it's an offer you can't refuse (unless you're under 25, privileged, a paladin-class, or a combination). With great power comes great greed. And not all "wealth" is measured by assets. You get "social Wealth" (status, etc.) and "Influential Wealth" (power, etc.) -- I haven't finalised those terms yet, lol. There was a time that some of the tech giants or their founding members were on our side. I think Elon Musk is, to a point, but I think he has his own agenda, too. That said...

Anyone think it's worth writing an open letter to Elon Musk encouraging/persuading/pleading with/begging him to start his own silicon company (or buy someone out) with a focus on open hardware? Maybe even innovate an entirely new platform while he's at it? With the right marketing, it may even disrupt/prevent the shift to mobile and the seemingly inevitable obsolescence of the desktop PC. Then who knows what glory the future may hold in tech.

But now I'm just being ideological. I'm probably too uninhibited after taking a loading dose of meds, lol. It's kinda like being high when you get an emergency shot of this stuff. It's supposed to KO you, but I'm very resilient, so this is the best it'll do: make me spout too much optimism.

If you make $100 million dollars from bad behavior and the fine is $25 million dollars, you might just as well commit the crime.
That is so sad, but so true. Even on an individual, microcosmic level, I see people act like this because laws are too lenient. I live in a country which is infested with crime coz crime pays more than punishment costs.

*I don't actually recall the number and am too lazy to fact check. That's what I remember.
 

Alexzee

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How Windows uses the Trusted Platform Module​


IF a different operating system is booted from a USB device—the operating system volume and user data cannot be read and are not accessible.

- This is me talking directly below -

Really read and think about what Hardware Root of Trust For Measurement does and than think how would you install Linux. Also Read Key used only when boot measurements are accurate.

- Now back to what Windows has to say -

Hardware root of trust for measurement. A TPM allows software to send it commands that record measurements of software or configuration information. This information can be calculated using a hash algorithm that essentially transforms a lot of data into a small, statistically unique hash value. The system firmware has a component called the Core Root of Trust for Measurement (CRTM) that is implicitly trusted. The CRTM unconditionally hashes the next software component and records the measurement value by sending a command to the TPM. Successive components, whether system firmware or operating system loaders, continue the process by measuring any software components they load before running them. Because each component’s measurement is sent to the TPM before it runs, a component cannot erase its measurement from the TPM. (However, measurements are erased when the system is restarted.) The result is that at each step of the system startup process, the TPM holds measurements of boot software and configuration information. Any changes in boot software or configuration yield different TPM measurements at that step and later steps. Because the system firmware unconditionally starts the measurement chain, it provides a hardware-based root of trust for the TPM measurements. At some point in the startup process, the value of recording all loaded software and configuration information diminishes and the chain of measurements stops. The TPM allows for the creation of keys that can be used only when the platform configuration registers that hold the measurements have specific values.
*****If a different operating system is booted or the configuration is changed, the measurement values in the TPM will be different, the TPM will not let Windows Boot Manager use the key, and the startup process cannot proceed normally because the data on the operating system cannot be decrypted.***** This is not good for Linux!

These are our machines. We paid for them to do the things that we want to do with them. We did not buy them for MS$ to do what they want to do.
 

Alexzee

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Yep, I hate it. Sadly, it always happens. Even with independent developers. Remember Whatsapp was designed "for the greater good" to give us privacy. FB sorry "Meta", bought it. Those devs never intended to sell out. IIRC, they rejected several offers. But when someones hits you with a $2billion USD*, it's an offer you can't refuse (unless you're under 25, privileged, a paladin-class, or a combination). With great power comes great greed. And not all "wealth" is measured by assets. You get "social Wealth" (status, etc.) and "Influential Wealth" (power, etc.) -- I haven't finalised those terms yet, lol. There was a time that some of the tech giants or their founding members were on our side. I think Elon Musk is, to a point, but I think he has his own agenda, too. That said...

Anyone think it's worth writing an open letter to Elon Musk encouraging/persuading/pleading with/begging him to start his own silicon company (or buy someone out) with a focus on open hardware? Maybe even innovate an entirely new platform while he's at it? With the right marketing, it may even disrupt/prevent the shift to mobile and the seemingly inevitable obsolescence of the desktop PC. Then who knows what glory the future may hold in tech.

But now I'm just being ideological. I'm probably too uninhibited after taking a loading dose of meds, lol. It's kinda like being high when you get an emergency shot of this stuff. It's supposed to KO you, but I'm very resilient, so this is the best it'll do: make me spout too much optimism.


That is so sad, but so true. Even on an individual, microcosmic level, I see people act like this because laws are too lenient. I live in a country which is infested with crime coz crime pays more than punishment costs.

*I don't actually recall the number and am too lazy to fact check. That's what I remember.
I think it's a great idea to write to Elon Musk.
You got me thinking...Fanboi:- See below:

Mr. Musk has a open source patent for the software he uses to design the cars he manufactures.
OH, BTW, Space X Dragon uses Linux!
I think that Mr. Musk would have a good reason to entertain our cause (regarding Windows and the TPM)

 

bob466

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Is microsuck scaring people to stay with windwoes.
happy0021.gif

The evil empire comes out with a lot of crap but I use Linux...so I couldn't give a stuff what microsuck says.
happy0069.gif
 

Alexzee

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One to two years old I think. But it has the TPM is on the Mobo not the CPU. (CPU is 9th gen intel)
Ok, good. One last question:-

Did you have to go into the "Security Section" of the BIOS to disable the TPM or was it under the "Boot Section" of the BIOS?
 

Fanboi

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How Windows uses the Trusted Platform Module​

Yeah, MS is pushing that like it's some new magic solution. Worrisome...

Microsoft's Website said:
Dictionary attack protection. Keys that a TPM protects can require an authorization value such as a PIN. With dictionary attack protection, the TPM can prevent attacks that attempt a large number of guesses to determine the PIN. After too many guesses, the TPM simply returns an error saying no more guesses are allowed for a period of time. Software solutions might provide similar features, but they cannot provide the same level of protection, especially if the system restarts, the system clock changes, or files on the hard disk that count failed guesses are rolled back. In addition, with dictionary attack protection, authorization values such as PINs can be shorter and easier to remember while still providing the same level of protection as more complex values when using software solutions.
Teaching people to be lazy with passwords. Let's say the the key is a minimum standard length, 4-digit, and say optionally up to 10 just coz there's ten numbers, lol. Anyway, here's your search space ( 10^(10!) ) - ( 10^(3!) ) if my memory/math serves me correct. Your mobile phone's CPU could crack that. As for a cheap GT 710 GPU, that's what you do while grabbing pizza. Not that this matters coz TPM was cracked already, anyway. [1] [2] This is why you should never, ever, ever, EVER assume your adversary does not have physical access when is comes to the base password... ever. Ever.

But I do have a question: Why do users suddenly need so much security? Seriously? What threats are out there? Most people's security is compromised by their own stupidity. There's no silver bullet; every "Trusted" hardware security method can or will be defeat for no other reason than lolz. Unless you're a massive enterprise or a whistleblower or a child pornographer (or terrorist or other "horseman"), you don't need these levels of security because the guy that steals your PC will wipe it so he can pawn it for enough to buy his next week's rent and a pack of smokes, maybe a beer. Of course if you have someone who's trying to get at your data, chances are they'll get it via a known exploit. In other words, this is not security, it is control.
 

Condobloke

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Alexzee

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Yeah, MS is pushing that like it's some new magic solution. Worrisome...


Teaching people to be lazy with passwords. Let's say the the key is a minimum standard length, 4-digit, and say optionally up to 10 just coz there's ten numbers, lol. Anyway, here's your search space ( 10^(10!) ) - ( 10^(3!) ) if my memory/math serves me correct. Your mobile phone's CPU could crack that. As for a cheap GT 710 GPU, that's what you do while grabbing pizza. Not that this matters coz TPM was cracked already, anyway. [1] [2] This is why you should never, ever, ever, EVER assume your adversary does not have physical access when is comes to the base password... ever. Ever.

But I do have a question: Why do users suddenly need so much security? Seriously? What threats are out there? Most people's security is compromised by their own stupidity. There's no silver bullet; every "Trusted" hardware security method can or will be defeat for no other reason than lolz. Unless you're a massive enterprise or a whistleblower or a child pornographer (or terrorist or other "horseman"), you don't need these levels of security because the guy that steals your PC will wipe it so he can pawn it for enough to buy his next week's rent and a pack of smokes, maybe a beer. Of course if you have someone who's trying to get at your data, chances are they'll get it via a known exploit. In other words, this is not security, it is control.
Sadly there are some folks in this world that go on power trips:-
And I agree, it is about control.

What is all this control really all about? Think about that:-
 

SlowCoder

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What is all this control really all about? Think about that:-
Give me a million bucks, and I'll happily walk away. But some entities need more. They need power over masses to be happy.
 

Alexzee

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I'm willing to compose a letter to Mr. Elon Musk but I'm only one voice.

Any ideas on what the letter should say? Anyone?
 

Fanboi

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I'm willing to compose a letter to Mr. Elon Musk but I'm only one voice.

Any ideas on what the letter should say? Anyone?
Got no idea on wording it. But the focal themes should be free speech, liberty, and obviously the financial gains: in-house QA (think Crucial/Micron), very marketable product since stats show that younger people are becoming more privacy-aware now, unlike 5+ years ago, and of course tons of endorsement from FSF et al.
 

Alexzee

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Got no idea on wording it. But the focal themes should be free speech, liberty, and obviously the financial gains: in-house QA (think Crucial/Micron), very marketable product since stats show that younger people are becoming more privacy-aware now, unlike 5+ years ago, and of course tons of endorsement from FSF et al.
Could you give a little more detail and elaborate on free speech, liberty and financial gains?

I'm interested in what everyone here thinks.
 

Fanboi

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Could you give a little more detail and elaborate on free speech, liberty and financial gains?

I'm interested in what everyone here thinks.
Warning: My PC died and some keys on my laptop are a little faulty. Expect some double-taps and missing Ls.

Also, IDK what you mean exactly. If it's an idea for what to put in the letter, IDK. If you're just looking for themes/premises, then cool. I'll assume the latter, so I'm just gonna write some stuff as it comes and then not edit it as such. Unscripted, unrehearsed...

What is freedom of speech and why do we need it?
First Point: Nobody on this planet is more intelligent than the entire human collective (except Gary Kasparov, who beat "The World" in chess back in 1999). Jokes aside, for society to evolve, our ideas of social vs antisocial behaviour need to be constantly questioned -- even when those questions are directed at the very people/groups/movements who questioned the system to bring about positive change in the first place. "People love what science gives us, but not the questions it asks." -- heard it in a film, dunno who said it first, but the bottom line is that we have to ask these questions and prioritise objective reality over everything else (while still being compassionate and sensitive enough to have basic human respect for people's subjective reallities, example: religion, identity things, and the stuff I can't speak about on this internet).
Second Point: Again, nobody is smarter than the entire compute cluster that is the 7.9billion people on this planet. We need new ideas. A lot of these new ideas are bad ones. I think we can all agree that the idea to remake The Lion King in 3D CGI was a bad idea, lol (I'd love to point out actual controversial things, but I'm not on Home Field, so I gotta go by forum rules). Still, the important the is not quality, it's quantity. Why? Well, duh, there's a relationship between academics, idealists, and creatives (though membership to these groups is not mutually-exclusive). Creative types and idealists often come up with ideas while academics criticise them, refining what's usable and discarding what's mental. That said, sometimes, bad ideas are incorporated into society, which brings us full circle to First Point.
Third Point: We are human. We have real sentience. We need to able to express what we feel, who/what we feel it about, and if we know, why we feel it. This is pretty simple, but I should have the right to preach about my Church of Coffee, where we worship The One Bean that rules us all and not be oppressed, silenced, shamed by the decentralised Big Brother of social media, etc. because the majority bellief is that The Church of Earl Grey Tea is the best. Everyone's expression is guaranteed to disagree with someone else, trying to shut everything down is counterproductive because nobody can express how and why the feel the way they do, on both sides, and reach common ground if we shove everyone in walled gardens based on intersectional labeling. And that brings us back to Point One and Point Two, since we need to be both critical of this (very flawed) system, but we need new ideas to find a better one (because we live in a different era and reying on past values of logic > emotion or science/stats > personal experience is fine, it cannot be implemented in the same way because society's architecture has been changed by this infinite expanse of Internet.

What is Liberty and why do we need it?
Liberty, simply put is being free. No king, lord, governor, government, etc. can keep you as a slave, oppress you, opress your freedom of belief and expression, and so forth. Boiled down, we can call it "sellf-determination". This ties in with Freedom of Speech, because this is where we get to the point -- well we start, I've planned this as a build-up. As it stands, we do not have true liberty in tech (actually other areas, but this forum is not the place, nudge, nudge, wink, wink). For starters, we accpepr the idea of OEM's preinstalling software that we cannot remover on devices we pay for as normal. Think about this: Woulld you buy a house if it came pre-furnished with ugly floral-print furniture & curtains and you were not able to simply dump them. Of course not. Worse still, imagine if instead of tasteless furnishings, you had cameras watching you. No sane person would pay for this... unless it's a piece of modern tech. This happens because these things creep in. They start with market dominance, then corporate interests will move away from minority markets to support the dominant entity. Once that entity has most of or all the power, they will start dictating to others in the general ecosystem. Microsoft is one of the prime examples. Microsoft makes software, amongst that, an OS. Yet Microsoft tells hardware manufacturers what they can/cannot do. If they do not comply, Windows will not work correctly on their hardware. Now, last I checked, software, especially the OS, was supposed to meet the hardware specification, not the other way around. Ask yourself without thinking first, "When did this happen?" and you won't get to an answer because it was a gradual process and much of it seemed like a Chicken-Egg Principle... Only it wasn't. It was a masterfully thought out, subversively-executed plan that used cunning marketing and even loose enforcement of IP. Gates admitted that he would be okay with people copying (illegally) Windows, because it would help it achieve a de facto status. And it did. Sofware companies, most especially gaming, stopped supporting other platforms because of the Windows market share... as did hardware manufacturers -- to their own eventual perill (y'all made yer beds, lie in em). Apple is another. It started with "incompatibility" was Apple hardware and other systems, but gradually reached the point of Apple trying to ban self-repair.
And don't think Open Source is immune. Most of Android is open source because the Linux kernel in GPLv2'd... Thing is that neither the firmware nor hardware has to be. In other words, we have a more modern form of vendor lock-in. Worse still is that we don't even have autonomy over our Android OS. Try to uninstall Youtube or any other Google app (OOTB)... Thought not. We don't have the right to remove software from what we paid for, what is our property. Worse is that we still have those rights on paper, but there are intentionally malicious designs preventing us exercising our legal rights: the warranty, and the risk of hardware bicking (which I bellieve is intentional since I saw a Russian hacker flash a chip on a printer that was counting number of printed pages and then bricking the printer in a much more modern form of planned obsolescence).
Now, let's get to gaming. Today, you buy the right to play the game, not a copy of it (mostly). The same gradual progression happened here: Well, each generation saw games getting bigger, but more on this. Just keep in mind that this is happening in the background. So, initiallly, we started with online "authnetication" as a "copy protection" (which was provn ineffective, but continued to be used and a disproportionate expense to companies). then we "trended" to DLC to "extend/expand/add to" games, then almost every game stated needing "patches" -- which were downlloadable. Hmmm... But what about QC??? Lol wut? Okay, so at this point, games were large, patches were large, the world was connected. Aw, heck, let's just have the user download all or most of the game and related content. But wait, why not require they have an account with a service/provider, too... Ta-dah. "The System wins"... "Flawless Victory"
I won't bother with non-interactive content, based on the above you can extrapolate since there are many paralllels. Sufficed to say that you need X streaming service or X membership to view/read/consume Y content -- which you're licensed to consume; you don't own a copy.
I'll end on the note that these entities profile you with your personal information, track your habits (even IRL), and either sell it, auction add space, or just use it internally to market their own products to you

Now I'm going to posit something here: Imagine if somebody wanted to silence you? Sure, if you were some llone wolf crazy, you could fight back, but most of us have families and kids, friends and lovers, and even just neighbours llike Surfer Dave. These people in our lives are affected by our choices (well, not Dave) so far as standing up to these giants. You have all the standard rights on paper, but you cannot enforce them because these entities have certain rights, too. They can cut you off from everything in the blink of an eye. You depend on the tech they track you with. And, to reference things like Psycho Pass, Minority Report, etc., they can profile you and determine your behaviour -- and they are trying to do it way beyond the scope of what porn you like. ML is a lot better than you know. We're conbining the database/dataset approach with some interesting behaviour simulation gleaned from the public's interactions online, with and without our products (not my products, "our" as a general term). This isn't to make a better Alexa. This is to make it better a auto-profiling you. That's not to say that a coming generation of virtual "intelligent" pets aren't on their way; they are. But beware because these puppies (pun intended) are gonna be you paying for yourself to be used as a lab rat for the next phase. The line of "real" virtual pets (a far cry from Tamagotchi and Pokemon or those stupid free phone apps) are going to be hackable to allow somewhat questionable activities (though officially these hacks will be a violation of the T&Cs that are slapped onto things to protect the company. They want you to torture your V-Pet, actually, and I'm pretty sure you guessed why.
So, we're at a point where not only can you simply be erased because almost al news is consumed onlline and social interactions are becoming more so, but soon they'll be able to tell how much of a threat you pose and cut you off before you can be. Better yet, shape you through the correct exposure to have a certain political or social bias.

Back to reality, though. All of it boils down to your products don't merely not beong to you, the actually own you.

So, where's the business potential?
Ah... Firstly, people -- young people -- are, for the first time in ages, becoming more privacy-aware. There's a growing interest in alternative culture in general and the 2010s are proof (albeit in a totally different area of life, cough, hint). Now, what is more edgy than non-"normative" hardware/sofware. Nothing says "I'm an individual" more than joining the thousands of others rebellling against "the norm." So there's a selling point.
Another is convenience. People are tired of missing drivers on Windows as they are of hardware issues on FOSS (although Linux is fairlly supported these days). And more people, even dim-witted cool kiddies, are at least toying with the notion of going Linux (while some LLinux users are now going BSD). By that, I mean full Linux. I don't mean to put down the community, but MS is responsible for a lot of converts because of decision after decision that alienated users. So many people I've spoken to wish they could afford a Mac. Some of them will listen to me and give a balanced distro like Mint a try (I generally show them videos of OTT eyecandy and awesomeness furst, then tell the Mint is a starting point).
Finally there's corporate.
Developers: Imagine a developer's glee at full, real, bear-metal access to do thing like write custom dyamically-loaded/unloaded drivers at game start/end instead of bear metal access through someone else's drivers? Imagine the general ease of optimization. Imagine the lack of legal BS. I think corporations would take interest
OEMs: Dealing with open hardware makes configuration easier and building custom OSes etc. without all the NDA drama. Yeah, sorry intel, we're going with the open CPUs for our workstations.
Purposed-hardware: Whether you're building your own personal framework for a massive industry like and airline company or just a crypto mining op, I think it was appeals.

...But you know what most of all? Never mind the above. Most people, even a-holes, support ethical companies. Marketing yourself as protecting privacy has worked for MS and Apple before (despite it being a llie). People buy non-related products from "ethical" companies in a different area. Example: ABCD Inc. donates 5million per year to saving the oceans, recycling, and rhoming kittens/puppies/unicorns. XYZ Inc. does not. They are mainly in the Teas industry, but dabble in coffee as well. XYZ Inc. coffee is $4.50 per cup and ABCD Inc. is $5 per cup at the local coffee shop. The coffee tastes identical and both come with a free donut, and both companies' profiles are well-known. Which coffee do you suppose sells the most?

...You were warned, lol. I gotta go to bed just now, so I'll edit that to make it more intelligible tomorrow. Hope the incumbent rambling of mine provides some ideas.
 

CrazedNerd

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Was looking over the specs of a small format PC and read the below,
I removed the manufacturers name just in case it would be problematic.

Superb security​

Innovate fearlessly with the end-to-end security of Th???Shi???, which combines industry-leading hardware, software, services, and processes to protect ideas and business. The Intel vPro® platform brings below-the-OS protection to better safeguard data and assets and maintain long-term stability

What does that mean for Linux users, will we be hindered in what we can install on such
a system, or will be just spied on. by this under the OS crap, which is just what I.M.E is too.

And it looks like AMD and Qualcomm are infested too.

Meet the Microsoft Pluton processor​

Today, Microsoft alongside our biggest silicon partners are announcing a new vision for Windows security to help ensure our customers are protected today and in the future. In collaboration with leading silicon partners AMD, Intel, and Qualcomm Technologies, Inc., we are announcing the Microsoft Pluton security processor.
sorry guest, but the only thing clear about this post is that it supports microsoft.
 

wizardfromoz

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I am not quite decided yet whether to leave this Thread open, as the (Deleted Member) left here at his own request.

I don't want to rain on friend Alex's parade if he wants to write a letter about it.

I'll ask @KGIII and @arochester for their input, methinks.

Cheers all

Wiz
 
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