There's a call to action from the people behind Steam...

[KGIII]

If you're a gamer this might be of interest to you. Basically, Steam is looking to release their client as a Snap application, via the usual channels. They could use some help testing and would appreciate it if you helped.

Of course, this applies to a limited sub-set and I'm not sure if any of our Ubuntu/official flavors folks are heavy gamers, nor do I know if they use Steam. Of course, some folks don't like Snap applications, so they won't be interested in this.

Steam call for testing!

Did you know we are aiming to move the Steam snap out of “Early Access” to stable soon? Did you know today is the first day of the Steam spring sale? Have you ever wanted to combine playing video games with contributing to the Ubuntu ecosystem? Well you’re in luck! Since publishing Steam as...

discourse.ubuntu.com

But, if anything, it does demonstrate the direction Ubuntu is going and the technology that's going in that direction with them. You can use Ubuntu (and flavors) without Snaps, but that's going to be more and more difficult as major software houses move to Snaps as their one-size-fits-all solution.

 

[f33dm3bits]

I'm currently using Fedora and I run Steam as a Flatpak, runs great. On my system at work I use Ubuntu LTS and I have Snaps disabled permanently the same way Linux Mint has it setup to do that. As soon as it becomes impossible to not disable Snaps I will trade in Ubuntu for something else at work. One major thing about GNU/Linux and opensource is that you always had control over what you want do with your system so choice what you want to use and what you don't want to use, as soon as that disappears from Ubuntu I won't consider Ubuntu truely opensource anymore and when/if that happens Linux Mint will have to find a different base distribution as well.

 

[KGIII]

That's a choice you get to make. You'll probably always be able to operate without Snaps, but stuff like Steam may not be easy to install - you might have to compile it yourself. Snaps are just fine by me. I don't mind them. I don't care how that stuff is delivered.

 

[f33dm3bits]

you might have to compile it yourself. Snaps are just fine by me.

You can't compile the Steam client because it isn't opensource, as long as you are still able to manually install Flatpak then that is an option too but if they remove that from the repos it will be another reason to not consider Ubuntu. If a distribution does remove the choice of being able to choose as in what software you want to use then they aren't truly opensource anymore. I can understand that they want to have Snap installed by default and not Flatpak so as long there is still a choice there is no problem.

 

[KGIII]

Ah, I figured it was open so you could compile it. That sucks.

Anyhow, there's some chance that they stop releasing it as a Flatpack, but I wouldn't speculate too much in that direction. I'm not sure how many tech companies are going to release on both? It is something we'll have to wait and see.

And, I strongly disagree with your declaration that they're not opensource.

However, the Snap store is not opensource. So, there's that. (The store is not the OS. The OS remains opensource.)

 

[Condobloke]

You can use Ubuntu (and flavors) without Snaps, but that's going to be more and more difficult as major software houses move to Snaps as their one-size-fits-all solution.

How microsoft-esque !

 

[KGIII]

How microsoft-esque !

How so, exactly?

 

[Condobloke]

microsoft certainly pushes the one size fits all ....if they had their way, linux or mac would not exist and m'soft would in fact reign supreme.

it does appear in the 'computing world' that creating dissension and division is an art form.

Ubuntu does appear to bring out the 'hotly contested' side of people.....arguments abound......snap vs flatpak etc

Does it all revolve around the almighty $ ? ....of course it does.

The arguments and disagreements will continue. m'soft will continue to do what they do best...sow the seeds of division......and the broader Linux community will continue to react in the way they do......by causing even more division in the community than already exist.

 

[KGIII]

microsoft certainly pushes the one size fits all ...

See, you're deliberately trying to find fault.

Here's what's really happening. Ubuntu is moving to new tech, tech that many people think is superior.

Now, we're all volunteers.

Because we're moving to new tech, we have neither the time nor resources to support myriad configurations so we have agreed to take the same path.

What you seem to want (even though you don't use Ubuntu directly) is to insist volunteers do more work.

No. We're moving to what is considered a new direction and better tech, and will devote our resources accordingly. The transition has been fairly painless so far, other than from people naysaying who aren't actually stepping up to volunteer their time to support these myriad configurations they feel should exist.

Or, you know, Ubuntu is Microsoft!!1eleve!!!

 

[Condobloke]

See, you're deliberately trying to find fault.

The fault is there to find....and has been there for a long, long time

What you seem to want (even though you don't use Ubuntu directly) is to insist volunteers do more work.

Are you finding fault??....by any chance?

How about we revisit the whole mess in a few years, and see what direction Ubuntu has moved in...hmm?

 

[sphen]

I am still trying to understand Canonical and its behavior. (... and yes, I am still trying to understand the security details around Snaps.)

Does Ubuntu actually dominate the Linux market to such a degree that they can unilaterally impose their solutions on the Ubuntu and overall Linux communities with impunity? Have they no concern that people may move away from Ubuntu if they continue on the current path?

 

[Condobloke]

dominate

That is the objective. Domination.

 

[Condobloke]

That 'aura' of domination is what bought a lot of people to Linux in the first place.

 

[KGIII]

How about we revisit the whole mess in a few years

You do realize that Ubuntu Core has been Snap-based for years now, right? So, how about we visit the idea now but with facts.

LOL You remind me of the people who ranted about systemd. It now 'dominates' the ecosystem, with nearly every major distro opting to use it - because it's superior in pretty much every way. The same may be true of Snaps, but time will tell.

Are you finding fault??....by any chance?

The only real fault I can find is them not making the store opensource. I don't actually care if it's opensource and I understand they don't want fragmentation (which ruins the whole point), but I think it'd help quell some of the absurdities people think.

If you want Ubuntu to behave in a different manner, then step up to volunteer to do the work of maintaining and supporting it. Otherwise, I can assure you that the sky is not falling. If it turns out to be a failed project, things will move on in a new direction. (We call that progress.)

By the way, installing Flatpacks and using AppImages remain trivial tasks even with Snaps. You can be reasonably confident that that's not going to change until those formats are no longer in use. (Which is gonna happen, 'cause tech doesn't stand still. Even Snaps will someday be supplanted, I'd expect.)

 

[KGIII]

Does Ubuntu actually dominate the Linux market to such a degree that they can unilaterally impose their solutions on the Ubuntu and overall Linux communities with impunity?

Of course not. Though (last time I checked) Ubuntu is on 34% of the servers out there, just ahead of Debian. The desktop market is likely similar or a bit more diverse.

Steam is a great example. Ubuntu has no sway over what Steam does really. I'm sure there will be folks who think it's conspiratorial and that a backroom deal was made where Ubuntu *forced* Steam into this decision. Steam will have been working on this for quite some time, before all the flavors agreed to only support Snaps from the default position.

People are gonna believe what they're gonna believe, I suppose.

 

[f33dm3bits]

And, I strongly disagree with your declaration that they're not opensource.
However, the Snap store is not opensource. So, there's that. (The store is not the OS. The OS remains opensource.)

I agree with you on that part, I was referring to if Canonical changes Ubuntu in such a manner that you aren't able to get around Snaps anymore meaning they don't give you a choice anymore then I would not consider Ubuntu truely opensource anymore but it hasn't gotten to that yet.

 

[KGIII]

I agree with you on that part, I was referring to if Canonical changes Ubuntu in such a manner that you aren't able to get around Snaps anymore meaning they don't give you a choice anymore then I would not consider Ubuntu truely opensource anymore but it hasn't gotten to that yet.

Canonical has made a zillion other changes that meant you couldn't use Ubuntu unless you did it their way - so hasn't ever other distro. Once again, I point out the similarities between you folks and the people who railed against systemd.

Rather than beat a dead horse, read my post at #14.

 

[wizardfromoz]

...and when/if that happens Linux Mint will have to find a different base distribution as well.

Well, they have that in the form of LMDE which has been around for years, and uses Debian over Ubuntu to complement its Mint repositories. It's a good product.

If we are going to talk facts:

1. There are 30 distros which allow for the use of Snaps
2. There are 41 which allow the use of Flatpacks

There is some overlap with those that allow for both. I couldn't get (yet) an easy figure for AppImage but it works on all of my stable of 84 distros.

Off Topic but David opened the door -

3. There are 72 distros available that do not use Systemd as the default init system, and the most notable of those is MX series (currently 21), which allows for the choice of Systemd at bootup login screen, but cannot be used from the live iso.

I use or have used 12 or so of those distros

LOL You remind me of the people who ranted about systemd. It now 'dominates' the ecosystem, with nearly every major distro opting to use it - because it's superior in pretty much every way.

My highlighting. Unfounded IME, and I have used probably 150 or more distros.

Now I have to go on a short shopping expedition but if I have to adjudicate over Pistols at 20 paces between the main protagonists, I will probably load the pistols with blanks, or maybe paint balls.

Storm in a teacup, if you ask me.

Cheers

Wizard

 

[KGIII]

My highlighting. Unfounded IME, and I have used probably 150 or more distros.

LOL There's a reason pretty much every distro moved to systemd. The few remaining distros, those without it, have a tiny amount of the marketshare. It's much, much better than the old way of doing things - which is why "everyone" adopted it. (Everyone is in quotes 'cause there are a few holdouts.)

Of those 150 distros, assuming modernity, almost all of 'em would have used systemd, much to the angst of the naysayers. It's so common that the myriad Linux article sites default to it. When they tell you how to start, stop, or check a service - they only have directions for people using systemd.

I view it like transitioning from ext2 to ext3 etc... We move on to what's *currently* technologically superior. It remains to be seen if Snaps are the best tech, but we move in that direction because of the benefits of doing so. Other companies, such as Steam (from said topic), also agree that there are benefits to doing so. Thousands of companies/projects have agreed and released their project that way.

I think we confuse 'best for now' and 'best according to our understanding' with an ideal - an ideal that doesn't necessarily exist at that time.

Also, in the systemd case, lots of people just hated Leonard Poettering (did I spell that right?) - which reminds me of the distaste some folks profess for Canonical. The similarities are many - including this...

People hated him initially due to his PulseAudio - which also made it into the vast majority of distros. Then came systemd.

Now, we're moving beyond that - with distros starting to move to PipeWire. Why? Because those doing the development work think PipeWire is a superior technology. And, as near as I can tell as a layperson, it is.

For now...

Like PulseAudio, PipeWire will someday be put to rest. When that happens, people afraid of change (or whatever) will rant about how PipeWire was the greatest thing ever and that the new tech is horrible.

Something will follow Snaps as the Next Big Thing!® There will be gnashing of teeth and outrage when Snaps are sunsetted and left to the rubbish bins of history.

 

[wizardfromoz]

1. There are 30 distros which allow for the use of Snaps
2. There are 41 which allow the use of Flatpacks

Hardly the next big thing, more distros allow for Flatpacks, but I doubt anyone has any accurate figures.

BTW

those without it, have a tiny amount of the marketshare.

I wasn't aware of any reliable source for numbers of home users using what distros, but you can share with us if you like.

I'll subscribe to Brian's suggestion

How about we revisit the whole mess in a few years?

See ya