If you care your posts or threads to be read

[CaffeineAddict]

I'm going to be little critical, not that care much but I hope that you'll find the critic useful.

3 golden rules are:

1. Don't write the whole bible when you post because rarely who has the time to read it.
2. Format your post into paragraphs to make it easier for others to read.
3. Short, clear and descriptive thread title.

I personally don't bother to read posts which fall into the above 2 categories.
If thread title is not clear I don't open the thread at all but mark it as read instead.

I'm pretty sure I'm not alone and I feel somebody had to say it, it just happened to be me.

 

[KGIII]

See the link in my signature. Those are pretty good guidelines. It can be difficult to ask a good support question.

 

[CaffeineAddict]

It can be difficult to ask a good support question.

Yes, if a problem one is facing is too broad or complex, then it makes sense to provide more information which may take a lot to write, such exceptions are IMO fine, but formatting plays crucial role, e.g. grouping things together under multiple titles in bold for easier navigation trough post.

 

[KGIII]

Yes, if a problem one is facing is too broad or complex, then it makes sense to provide more information which may take a lot to write, such exceptions are IMO fine, but formatting plays crucial role, e.g. grouping things together under multiple titles in bold for easier navigation trough post.

One of the big ones is that the person with the problem may not know where the problem is. They'll make all sorts of assumptions at this time. This will also waste our time. They're not even sure how to describe it.

For example, they could ask 'my computer is locking up'. They don't have the slightest idea how to find out why that's happening. They only know that their computer is locking up. Folks will then share troubleshooting steps which may or may not help them. Me? In that case, I'd simply start by asking them what was happening when the computer locked up - and then I'd get into diagnosing.

They may not know that their computer is locking up because they're using a Chromium-based browser with HA enabled and that their browsing is the cause. They may ignore that fact entirely and assume it's a deeper problem. Folks will chime in to ask them to do things like check the journal for errors and stuff like that.

It's like going to a mechanic and telling them that you hear a knock but only part of the time.

That's not really going to help them all that much, so they'll collect more information (if they're a good mechanic). Folks don't know how their car works so they're really not all that helpful when telling the mechanics what's wrong. The mechanic has a bit of an advantage because they have diagnostic tools and may even be able to take the car for a test drive.

The people asking questions are often less familiar with Linux than those of us who post here regularly. All they know is that it froze. They don't know what's important to share.

What they should have posted was something like, "My computer freezes when I have this, that, and these things open as well as the usual system applications." (They can add what they've done to test and things like that.)

I did think about creating a template to ask good support questions, but I decided against it after I realized how complicated it would be to make it a good template. There are just too many variables. There are just too many outliers and the user often doesn't have enough information to make the template results much of an improvement.

 

[CaffeineAddict]

I did think about creating a template to ask good support questions, but I decided against it after I realized how complicated it would be to make it a good template. There are just too many variables. There are just too many outliers and the user often doesn't have enough information to make the template results much of an improvement.

This would be certainly good idea.

If making a template is too complex then it should be very simple, such as:

<My problem is>
<What I have tried>
<System information (and how to get it)>
<Additional information>

There are many questions which omit these sections, and also if nothing else it would group things into sections.

 

[KGIII]

There are many questions which omit these sections, and also if nothing else it would group things into sections.

I envision a much more complicated template that actually gives you choices (starting with something like if it's a hardware or software related question, for example). A quick and dirty template is only so useful and probably won't be seen as a benefit.

After all, we can't even get people to post in the correct sub-forums.

Heck... We even have regular users who post the same thing that was posted earlier that day,

The template would change depending your input. For example, if you selected hardware information then it'd tell you how to get that information. It'd then automatically format and insert that into the results.

Basically, they'd fill in the template and out would spit a fully formed question to post. It'd likely suggest the correct sub-forum to post in and provide links to those sub-forums.

For example, it would link to this page and you'd cut/paste the resulting question that's all properly formatted for you:

https://www.linux.org/forums/off-topic.203/post-thread

So, you can see why I decided it was more work than I was willing to give it. If you want to hack up some PHP, I'll be happy to host it for you.

 

[CaffeineAddict]

I envision a much more complicated template that actually gives you choices (starting with something like if it's a hardware or software related question, for example).

I see, it would take a lot of work.

I used to be very active on one another windows forum, what I did is write down a bunch of powershell commands to harvest logs and system info.
When folks come to forums to ask question I would simply copy/paste my commands and ask them to run them.

The commands would harvest relevant info and zip it, so that it can be attached to forums.
This method turned out to be very useful to troubleshoot problems and especially because I didn't have to repeat same questions every time.

The point is that templates are useful.

If you want to hack up some PHP, I'll be happy to host it for you.

I could if I knew web development but I don't

 

[Brickwizard]

If making a template is too complex then it should be very simple, such as:

Have you read my signature [the same one I have had since joining]
at times, it would be easier to get a tone of rocking horse manure, than get information out of some poster, one recently i asked what his machine was, and he totally ignored me, a common one is what distribution are you using, answer Ubuntu or Debian when in fact its Pop or more likely Kali

 

[CaffeineAddict]

one recently i asked what his machine was, and he totally ignored me

This is annoying, when my post is ignored I simply no longer post to thread and just mark it read from that point on.

 

[KGIII]

The point is that templates are useful.

That'd be why I considered it.

In the end, it was more effort than I am willing to give. I already give a lot of my time and effort. LOL

 

[dos2unix]

<!DOCTYPE html>
<html lang="en">
<head>
    <meta charset="UTF-8">
    <meta name="viewport" content="width=device-width, initial-scale=1.0">
    <title>System Information Form</title>
    <style>
        body {
            font-family: Arial, sans-serif;
        }
        table {
            width: 100%;
            border-collapse: collapse;
        }
        th, td {
            padding: 10px;
            text-align: left;
            border: 1px solid #333; /* Dark grey */
        }
        th {
            background-color: #4a90e2; /* Medium blue */
            color: white;
        }
        td.question {
            background-color: #d9eaf7; /* Lighter blue */
        }
        td.answer {
            background-color: #f1f7fc; /* Even lighter blue */
        }
    </style>
</head>
<body>
    <form action="your_backend_script.php" method="post">
        <table>
            <tr>
                <th>Question</th>
                <th>Answer</th>
            </tr>
            <tr>
                <td class="question"><label for="distro">Linux Distro:</label></td>
                <td class="answer"><input type="text" id="distro" name="distro"></td>
            </tr>
            <tr>
                <td class="question"><label for="version">Version/Release:</label></td>
                <td class="answer"><input type="text" id="version" name="version"></td>
            </tr>
            <tr>
                <td class="question"><label for="architecture">32bit or 64bit:</label></td>
                <td class="answer">
                    <select id="architecture" name="architecture">
                        <option value="32bit">32bit</option>
                        <option value="64bit">64bit</option>
                    </select>
                </td>
            </tr>
            <tr>
                <td class="question"><label for="computer">Computer Type:</label></td>
                <td class="answer"><input type="text" id="computer" name="computer"></td>
            </tr>
            <tr>
                <td class="question"><label for="make">Make:</label></td>
                <td class="answer"><input type="text" id="make" name="make"></td>
            </tr>
            <tr>
                <td class="question"><label for="model">Model:</label></td>
                <td class="answer"><input type="text" id="model" name="model"></td>
            </tr>
            <tr>
                <td class="question"><label for="ram">RAM:</label></td>
                <td class="answer">
                    <select id="ram" name="ram">
                        <option value="less_than_2GB">Less than 2GB</option>
                        <option value="2GB">2GB</option>
                        <option value="4GB">4GB</option>
                        <option value="8GB">8GB</option>
                        <option value="16GB_or_more">16GB or more</option>
                    </select>
                </td>
            </tr>
            <tr>
                <td class="question"><label for="cpu">CPU Model:</label></td>
                <td class="answer"><input type="text" id="cpu" name="cpu"></td>
            </tr>
            <tr>
                <td class="question"><label for="gpu">GPU Make/Model:</label></td>
                <td class="answer"><input type="text" id="gpu" name="gpu"></td>
            </tr>
            <tr>
                <td class="question"><label for="vm">Is this a VM or a physical machine?</label></td>
                <td class="answer">
                    <select id="vm" name="vm">
                        <option value="VM">VM</option>
                        <option value="Physical">Physical</option>
                    </select>
                </td>
            </tr>
            <tr>
                <td class="question"><label for="vm_software">Which VM software?</label></td>
                <td class="answer">
                    <select id="vm_software" name="vm_software">
                        <option value="None">None</option>
                        <option value="VirtualBox">VirtualBox</option>
                        <option value="VMware">VMware</option>
                        <option value="Qemu/KVM">Qemu/KVM</option>
                        <option value="Other">Other</option>
                    </select>
                </td>
            </tr>
            <tr>
                <td class="question"><label for="install">Is this a new install, or was this working before?</label></td>
                <td class="answer"><input type="text" id="install" name="install"></td>
            </tr>
            <tr>
                <td class="question"><label for="upgrade">Did you recently do an upgrade?</label></td>
                <td class="answer">
                    <select id="upgrade" name="upgrade">
                        <option value="Yes">Yes</option>
                        <option value="No">No</option>
                    </select>
                </td>
            </tr>
            <tr>
                <td class="question"><label for="sound">Is this sound related?</label></td>
                <td class="answer">
                    <select id="sound" name="sound">
                        <option value="Yes">Yes</option>
                        <option value="No">No</option>
                    </select>
                </td>
            </tr>
            <tr>
                <td class="question"><label for="speakers">Are speakers wired or Bluetooth?</label></td>
                <td class="answer">
                    <select id="speakers" name="speakers">
                        <option value="Wired">Wired</option>
                        <option value="Bluetooth">Bluetooth</option>
                    </select>
                </td>
            </tr>
            <tr>
                <td colspan="2" style="text-align: center;">
                    <input type="submit" value="Submit">
                </td>
            </tr>
        </table>
    </form>
</body>
</html>

Optional if distro = Kali: delete

 

[osprey]

There was thread here which looked at the issue of asking for help in 2022: https://linux.org/threads/on-the-searching-and-asking-for-help-on-computer-questions-in-linux.42449/

As mentioned in that thread, that proposal was probably less suited to linux beginners than those with some linux experience, so in that respect it targeted a limited category of inquirer.

A problem in formulating any set of guidelines is catering to the range of levels of knowledge. Frankly, I don't think it's possible to cover the field of cognitive variability in one fell swoop. Perhaps a number of different templates targeted for different levels may be useful. It's just the case that sometimes an answer can be as simple as a suggested command, so gathering information on the machine such as inxi output is irrelevant.

The part played by the responder who is trying to help an inquirer is just as much part of the issue in helping on the forum as the inquirer's query. If the responder is able to ask astute questions of the inquirer targeting the issue from a position with some knowledge, experience and insight, then the chances of a positive outcome are increased I think. That approach seems far more useful to me than firing off seemingly relevant queries which just gather a bunch of information that doesn't further the problem towards a resolution.

There's the issue of responders who reply to an inquirer with implied negative judgements of one sort or another about the inquirer's usage or choices. Such implied judgements which have a negative nuance can simply prolong the inquirer's problems by frustrating the inquirer, deterring them from the forum or from linux altogether. Sometimes those things happen and the forum is made aware of it when the inquirer reports it back to forum. That situation can often be one of responder failure, though not always of course because some inquirers do come with issues of their own.

 

[KGIII]

Perhaps a number of different templates targeted for different levels may be useful.

Yeah, at first it looks like it's an easy task. Indeed, for a basic template it is an easy task. But, a basic template isn't as beneficial as what I'd prefer - and isn't optimal. So, investing time in it isn't something I was wont to do.

That approach seems far more useful to me than firing off seemingly relevant queries which just gather a bunch of information that doesn't further the problem towards a resolution.

That there's a part of the complexity. Much of the time, we don't need stuff like INXI data and that would just be wasted space, clutter, and a distraction.

Such implied judgements which have a negative nuance can simply prolong the inquirer's problems by frustrating the inquirer, deterring them from the forum or from linux altogether.

This is very much an issue - but not as much here as it is elsewhere, in my opinion.

It does happen here. If it reaches an arbitrary point, I step in and remind folks to be civil. There's also a bit of what's sort of like victim blaming, or maybe elitism or gatekeeping. I'm not quite sure how to word that.

(There's also replies that are far above the user's skill level, but I am powerless to help that.)

 

[theLegionWithin]

it can be difficult for the average user to know how to described the problem - even just knowing what terms to use to ask the question in the first place can be troublesome, especially if you're new to an ecosystem (linux, windows, et al).

a great example of this comes from one of my users years and years ago - nice lady but if you looked up "non-technical" in an encyclopedia, her profile picture would be shown as exhibit A. we had recently converted from lotus notes (the mind recoils in horror) to microsoft outlook, I forget which version, one of the earlier ones. anyway, she runs up to me one day complaining that the "server is down", and wouldnt hear otherwise when I claimed that we had no outages. I took her into our server room and showed her the blinkenlights as proof. eventually she calmed down enough for me to get her to describe the issue. turns out, outlook was in offline mode and she hadnt gotten email for 2 weeks.... she didnt know enough about the issue to know how to describe it and just assumed that the "server was down".

 

[AlphaObeisance]

I'm going to be little critical, not that care much but I hope that you'll find the critic useful.

3 golden rules are:

1. Don't write the whole bible when you post because rarely who has the time to read it.
2. Format your post into paragraphs to make it easier for others to read.
3. Short, clear and descriptive thread title.

I personally don't bother to read posts which fall into the above 2 categories.
If thread title is not clear I don't open the thread at all but mark it as read instead.

I'm pretty sure I'm not alone and I feel somebody had to say it, it just happened to be me.

While I agree in regards to support requests. This is a discussion thread, therefore, as you are in like company, so too am I in that I enjoy having meaningful conversation to any depth beyond what one might engage in through a text on a phone.

While many may surf the web from their phones, even a simple "paragraph" can look like a "bible". Personally I find societies inability to hold legitimate conversations disheartening as one can't even share any genuine thought, perception, theory or philosophy without someone complaining. There is no connection. Curious how many will take the time to complain about the length of a thread but wont take the equivalent in time to simply read a post.

Either you have time, or you don't.

It's not a popularity contest to me, I don't care if anyone reads my content or not. Because I'm not here posting for the masses. I'm posting for those with an attention span greater than a gold fish, and simply assume those who pass by are either too busy to engage with me, or don't care too; either way that's OK.

But when I take the time to provide genuine, authentic, personable input on a thread, I'm presented with ample opportunity to meet some of the most down to earth, inspirational individuals of my time. I don't much care to engage with conversation with someone who's just here to stack on their post count with short, brief posts.

I'm talking to the lurkers in the shadows behind the keyboard who actually DO read lengthy posts (and we do exist, but we don't always chime in), because those are the people I've found tend to be the most sincere and genuine. They seemingly care about more than what they have going on, even to the extent of simply having a conversation with a like minded individual on the internet.

No doubt this was too long, but I digress. Someone will get the message, and to them I say; thanks for reading, and I hope you have an epic day.

Cheers.

P.S. it took me all of 20 seconds to read my above response. I'm a slow reader.

 

[KGIII]

Personally I find societies inability to hold legitimate conversations disheartening as one can't even share any genuine thought, perception, theory or philosophy without someone complaining.

These days, folks don't consider anything more than what can fit on a bumper sticker.

I'd go on but it'd eventually turn to politics 'cause I'm in a mood today. So, I'll let folks draw their own conclusions.

 

[AlphaObeisance]

These days, folks don't consider anything more than what can fit on a bumper sticker.

Crap happens! Life's a garden, Dig it!

 

[bob466]

I totally agree...nothing worse than seeing 50 paragraphs compressed in to one...I will never read them.

People that are too lazy use DuckDuckGo or Google first to try to solve a problem...then come on the Forum ask the question and take no advise that's given.

People who can't or won't follow simple instructions...eg...burning an ISO to a Flash Drive even with pictures.